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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Yeah, can't say we'll agree on Tsipras. I would say it is possible to agree on the fact that it's real test for how 'Europe' has incrementally built itself legally over the past few decades. It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting.
    The biggest mistake was made when those who supported the EU pretended that all European cultures were the same. It should have been Free Trade and nothing more. This was easily predicted, and will not get better.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Hopefully, Greece's people will vote for the EU/ECB/IMF package and repudiate the Prime Minister's wishes. While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.
    How ironic that all the ire towards Greece is being directed at those having to deal with the consequences of the mismanagement of the Greek economy, rather than at those who put Greece in this position, i.e. the Greek bankers, the corrupt politicians who ran up the debt and nationalised the private debt, placing the bankers IOU notes on the plates of the ordinary Greek citizens, and the corrupt EU/ECB practices who closed their eyes to the fraud being committed.

    Finally, I retain confidence in what Europe has built and the Euro currency. What has been built can and will survive the impulsive and destructive actions of a radical actor. And if the Greek people resoundingly repudiate him in a referendum, his days in office could be numbered and a new election could sweep many of the radicals who inflicted unnecessary hardship on an already-suffering population out of office.
    And then what? Accept the conditions and then see the debt continue to rise, the austerity continue to ramp up, destroying more jobs and livelihoods, and the guarantee that the economy never recovers? How will saying yes be of any advantage to the Greeks?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

    Syriza has caused none of it.

    Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
    The past accumulation of debt was built up by earlier governments. The current banking crisis was solely the result of Prime Minister Tsiparas' choice. It never had to happen. With a mature Greek leadership, it would not have happened.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The past accumulation of debt was built up by earlier governments. The current banking crisis was solely the result of Prime Minister Tsiparas' choice. It never had to happen. With a mature Greek leadership, it would not have happened.
    That's not true. The Greek debt hasn't suddenly increased. Government spending hasn't increased. The past accumulation of debt is what the whole discussion is about. It's not about a debt that the Syriza government has had any hand in creating. This very current banking issue has been created by the limit of the ELA by the institutions in retaliation for Tsipras call for a referendum. Tsipras has called their bluff and hence Juncker has come back with an improved offer, which the Greek government are currently discussing, one that will make the payment to the IMF slightly more possible. of course, Juncker has added the rider that acceptance of this deal will be contingent on Tsipras recommending a yes vote on the referendum - so much for Merkel's assurance that no external force will try to influence the electorate's decision.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..
    Individual misfortune does not change the facts of the matter.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    If a credit company hands over a no-limit credit card to someone who is known to be feckless and irresponsible and that credit card is tied to the savings of many other people who work hard and have built up savings - you think the credit card company is not criminally responsible for the ensuing problems?.
    After entering the EU under false pretenses, Greece went out of their way to avoid exceeding the explicit limitations on deficit spending spelled out in the Maastricht Treaty. No, they didn't go out of their way to be socially and fiscally responsible, they went out of their way to hide debt and new loans while they continued to spend on a bloated public sector.

    For years Millions of Greek citizens took advantage of unsustainable public sector giveaways including multiple bonuses annually, early pensions and excessive income. All payed for by someone else.

    A Nation could be fined severely for exceeding the deficit spending limitations spelled out int he Maastricht Treaty. Blaming the Creditors for any of this is just ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    We have this thing called "due diligence" we adopted it from US law (I'm assuming you're American) after the 1933 Securities Act
    Where was the due diligence from the Greeks when they were spreading their toxic bonds throughout European Banks while taking advantage of the pretense of being a member nation in good standing ? Where was the due diligence when they grew their public sector to unsustainable proportions at the expense of their economy ??


    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Why would you make it known to the world that your credit investigation and due diligence processes were completely lacking? Especially when your own fortunes and reputations in a one way project are tied completely to your reputation?
    Lol...Now your'e just making up excuses as you go along. Other EU Member Nations had no problem adhering to the strict guidelines in the Treaty. Greece gets no sympathy from me and shouldn't get any sympathy from the Troika.

    It would appear they had every intention of entering into the Union under false pretenses for the explicit purpose of defrauding their creditors. It's analogous to someone figuring out a way to hack the credit agencies so they could turn their 540 Credit score into a 800 for the purpose of acquiring multiple credit cards

    Once the score gets bumped up they go on a spending spree with ZERO intentions of paying back their debt. That's also called Fraud and Greece did it on a National Scale.


    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..
    Yes, there are severe consequences of massive unsustainable deficit spending. Go figure. Americans should see what's happening in Greece right now as a warning of what's to come if we keep spending.

    Conversely, the Goofy left wing posters that claim a Nation can borrow, print and spend their way into prosperity are steering clear of these Greece threads because the Greek debt crisis proves them wrong on so many levels.

    As for the unemployed in Greece ? You can demagogue this issue all you want. It's irrelevant especially when you consider that the Greek people lived high off the hog for over 20 years on other people's money and then to make matters worse, they elected a hard left wing lunatic Che Guervera worshiping activist to be their PM in 2015.

    It would appear that they've been fundamentally corrupted by the entitlement mentality. There's not much hope for Greece apparently.
    " If no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else ? "
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Individual misfortune does not change the facts of the matter.
    Nor the addage that you can't get blood out of a stone. The current austerity has collapsed revenues and now they want even more austerity. It makes no sense

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Lol...Now your'e just making up excuses as you go along. Other EU Member Nations had no problem adhering to the strict guidelines in the Treaty. Greece gets no sympathy from me and shouldn't get any sympathy from the Troika.
    There are 13 members of the EU that do not adhere to that Maastricht Treaty's stipulation that debt should not exceed 60% of GDP - and those 13 include France, Netherlands and...Germany.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...by_public_debt
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Nor the addage that you can't get blood out of a stone. The current austerity has collapsed revenues and now they want even more austerity. It makes no sense
    What are really being negotiated right now are the terms under which much of the debt will be written off.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Well of-course you do.

    If Syrzia says jump, Socialist say how high. The Greek people already voted, they elected or they thought they elected a leader. Not someone who's looking for a way to pass off his responsibility by holding a referendum.

    He's looking to cover his ass Politically.

    But then again, this was the same guy who tried to extort his way out of this mess by claiming Germany owed Greece 300 Million euro's in " Nazi war crime " fines unpaid.
    I have a feeling that Tsipiras has realized that, no matter how much of a socialist he is, it really doesn't work when the rubber hits the road. It's great when you're a bunch of wasted college students who don't know any better, it's another matter when you're the leader of a nation in crisis and you're trying to make the actual numbers work.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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