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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

  1. #191
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.
    All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

    Syriza has caused none of it.

    Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

    Syriza has caused none of it.

    Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
    How is the ECB, IMF and EU " criminally responsible " for Greece's decision to spend beyond its means ?

    Because they " knew " ? If they knew why wasn't Greece's debt downgraded sooner than 2009 ?

    And the loan through Goldman Sachs was done in secret, right ?

    I'm starting to get the feeling that the entire notion of personal responsibility is a purely right wing concept.

    Socialism failed when Capitalism just couldn't pay for it anymore and now the Socialist, instead of borrowing money under false pretenses are demanding payment outright.

    Good luck with that.

  3. #193
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    What Tsipras Had Stated About the Greek Referendum in 2011 | GreekReporter.com



    There's a lot to be said - from the old cliche "a week is a long time in politics" to "maybe he's changed views due to actions / information he had no prior knowledge of" etc but right now, as I think it would have been 4 years ago before Germany and France stopped the referendum - it's the right thing to do; whatever we think of Tsipras and his politics.
    I agree a referendum may be necessary - it might have been necessary for countries joining the Euro in the first place!

    However it is not 4 years to mull it over. It's a week since it's a different package and there was no indication he was going to go this way beforehand - his previous quotes, publically available, indicate it as an inappropriate question to ask of the public. It shocked Greeks as much as Troika blazers.

    And no one is being forthright to the Greeks what the referendum means. The EC released the offer for public review. The German opposition is the only public figure saying it's a referendum on the Euro.

    No further transparency is being offered on what a referendum would mean - 4 years ago or now,

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Juncker is saying it's a referendum on whether Greece remains in the EU. Not helpful and immediately makes a liar of Merkel who this afternoon said that no external influence is going to be applied to the Greek's decision. This is truly showing the EU at its worst, most bungling, most disingenuous and anti-democratic. What a shambles!
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Juncker is saying it's a referendum on whether Greece remains in the EU. Not helpful and immediately makes a liar of Merkel who this afternoon said that no external influence is going to be applied to the Greek's decision. This is truly showing the EU at its worst, most bungling, most disingenuous and anti-democratic. What a shambles!
    The Greek people voted already.

    The elected Tsipras. Its not Merkels fault he doesn't have the courage or conviction to be a leader.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I agree a referendum may be necessary - it might have been necessary for countries joining the Euro in the first place!

    However it is not 4 years to mull it over. It's a week since it's a different package
    The latter part is something we won't have common ground on however yeah, a few more countries would have been better off with referendums but as I remember a few years ago, there was only pro joining publicity being shown. There pro publicity and buildup had been going on since the days of the ERM and tracking each other's currencies.

    As for the 4 years - Greece didn't have 4 years to the latest ultimatum.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    The latter part is something we won't have common ground on however yeah, a few more countries would have been better off with referendums but as I remember a few years ago, there was only pro joining publicity being shown. There pro publicity and buildup had been going on since the days of the ERM and tracking each other's currencies.

    As for the 4 years - Greece didn't have 4 years to the latest ultimatum.
    Yeah, can't say we'll agree on Tsipras. I would say it is possible to agree on the fact that it's real test for how 'Europe' has incrementally built itself legally over the past few decades. It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    ~ It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting.
    Absolutely agree. The trouble is the impetus has all been about creating a one-way street with few real safeguards and checks to make sure this structure would stand the test of time.

    That's the worst of all worlds really, alternatives are now harder to see and will prove incredibly costly.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    Your first post to me intimated that this was all Tsipras' fault but having read further, I get it now, the previous years of sliding into a vast and never ending debt to creditors, the transition of Greece into a bankrupt state was not a crisis?
    It was bad management; that is not necessarily a crisis.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    How is the ECB, IMF and EU " criminally responsible " for Greece's decision to spend beyond its means ?
    If a credit company hands over a no-limit credit card to someone who is known to be feckless and irresponsible and that credit card is tied to the savings of many other people who work hard and have built up savings - you think the credit card company is not criminally responsible for the ensuing problems?

    We have this thing called "due diligence" we adopted it from US law (I'm assuming you're American) after the 1933 Securities Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Because they " knew " ? If they knew why wasn't Greece's debt downgraded sooner than 2009 ?
    Why would you make it known to the world that your credit investigation and due diligence processes were completely lacking? Especially when your own fortunes and reputations in a one way project are tied completely to your reputation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It was bad management; that is not necessarily a crisis.
    Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..
    Find Corrie McKeague, missing RAF serviceman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breibart journo Milo Yiannopoulos (this is ironic because "race realists" exist)
    "The real racists… are very serious, are deep into studies and data attempting to prove that some races are smarter than other races - they're really dorky." Link.

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