Page 18 of 33 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 321

Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

  1. #171
    Traveler

    Jack Hays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,657
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    there is no other way than a deflationary death spiral
    ?
    Access to Eurozone financing is imperative.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  2. #172
    Gradualist
    TheDemSocialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in the Midwest
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    34,308
    Blog Entries
    7

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Leave it Greece. Leave the group of countries in Europe dominated by an undemocratic, financial powerhouse.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

  3. #173
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:29 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,621

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, Infinite Chaos.

    As would I, and probably most of the people we both know! The only problem I can see is that governments always seem to err on the side of not causing panic by admitting problems, but I always felt if the circumstances are such that panic is possible, it's better to be a day too early than a day too late to give people time to prepare for it - it's being caught unaware that causes problems.
    This I can agree, Tsipras was elected by Greeks on his platform which he has pretty much stuck to, the platform was in response to the disaster hanging over Greece due to debts and potential bankruptcy. I think a referendum making sure the country is still with him is entirely reasonable - even if I disagree his politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    A decision like that may require a referendum. But he's denying it as being a choice on the Euro (that consequence would be the Troika's fault). And he crapped on a previous suggestion of a referendum (then, the people weren't informed enough to make that kind of a decision).

    It's hard to justify it as anything but a deferral of responsibility.
    I disagree, George Papandreou was pretty much ousted 4 years ago but not by Tsipras for suggesting a referendum / public vote on his rescue package but not by Tsipras. The conditions for Papandreou publicly slammed by Greece's debtors and then Tsipras turned down the $15billion rescue package on Friday which the Greek govt saw as economic blackmail.

    Hardly deferring responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Tsipras created the problem and is now hiding behind the people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It was and remains a terrible problem but there was a path to a solution. Tsipras left that path and created the crisis.
    Your first post to me intimated that this was all Tsipras' fault but having read further, I get it now, the previous years of sliding into a vast and never ending debt to creditors, the transition of Greece into a bankrupt state was not a crisis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Who've you been flying with? 7 hours to fly to Greece??? I flew Manchester - Rhodes two years ago in 4 hours.
    I must have fallen asleep.
    Find Corrie McKeague, missing RAF serviceman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breibart journo Milo Yiannopoulos (this is ironic because "race realists" exist)
    "The real racists… are very serious, are deep into studies and data attempting to prove that some races are smarter than other races - they're really dorky." Link.

  4. #174
    Guru
    Ben K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,708

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post



    I disagree, George Papandreou was pretty much ousted 4 years ago but not by Tsipras for suggesting a referendum / public vote on his rescue package but not by Tsipras. The conditions for Papandreou publicly slammed by Greece's debtors and then Tsipras turned down the $15billion rescue package on Friday which the Greek govt saw as economic blackmail.

    Hardly deferring responsibility.





    :
    I'm not saying he was ousted by tsipras. I'm saying tsipras was among those criticising a call for referendum because the public weren't informed enough to to make the decision. He's a hypocrite.

  5. #175
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:29 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,621

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I'm not saying he was ousted by tsipras. I'm saying tsipras was among those criticising a call for referendum because the public weren't informed enough to to make the decision. He's a hypocrite.
    Papandreou backed down over his referendum plan as it became clear that Greece faced the prospect of going bust within weeks after EU powerhouses Germany and France threatened to withdraw further financial support for the country until after the popular vote was held.

    Focusing the minds of terrified politicians, the threat encouraged a swift change of stance from the main opposition leader, Samaras. The leader of the New Democracy party, who had previously vehemently opposed the rescue plan, now says he will support its passage in the 300-seat parliament. The news was welcomed by German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Nicolas Sarkozy, who have been blaming the lack of political consensus in Greece for its inability to enact crucial reforms. Link.
    He may have thought the referendum was a bad idea or the public not informed enough (I haven't actually found where he says this yet) when powerful actors were not obvious to the people but I think all cards are out right now. As a Greek, you wouldn't be able to ignore all the forces at play right now.
    Find Corrie McKeague, missing RAF serviceman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breibart journo Milo Yiannopoulos (this is ironic because "race realists" exist)
    "The real racists… are very serious, are deep into studies and data attempting to prove that some races are smarter than other races - they're really dorky." Link.

  6. #176
    Guru
    Ben K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,708

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    He may have thought the referendum was a bad idea or the public not informed enough (I haven't actually found where he says this yet) when powerful actors were not obvious to the people but I think all cards are out right now. As a Greek, you wouldn't be able to ignore all the forces at play right now.
    I posted the link earlier in the thread. His reasons why a referendum was not appropriate are all the ones aimed at him now.

  7. #177
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The anals of history
    Last Seen
    07-25-15 @ 12:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,348

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    The carnage will begin shortly. Will not be pretty when the stock market opens up tomorrow...

  8. #178
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The anals of history
    Last Seen
    07-25-15 @ 12:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,348

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    You guys remember when the Euro was going to replace the Dollar as the world's reserve currency?

    LOL

  9. #179
    Minister of Love
    PoS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Oceania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    9,648

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Would you like to explain what was achieved by the previous Greek governments cooperating with the Troika? The debt rose, the economy shrank, mass unemployment, public employees unpaid. The current deal on offer, without debt relief, means exactly the same thing.
    Im not defending the previous Greek governments, in my opinion the Greeks have brought this unto themselves and it was decades in the making. What I find even more funny is that there doesnt seem to be any alternatives for a better government even if Tsipras resigns.

    Greece has to decide between two radically different and incompatible positions. Tsipras has concluded that they can't have it both ways given the bullish and vindictive position of the Troika, so they have to choose, as a nation, and it's a choice that didn't appear to be inevitable when he was elected.
    He was elected based on promises he made which was impossible to deliver. The IMF holds all the cards here so its best they give in to their demands. Im not saying the IMF are good guys either but they are the lesser of two evils at this point.

  10. #180
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    26,360

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Excellent analysis, and this is the reality that the Greeks are facing. It's horrific, but in comparison with the alternative, isn't it inevitable?
    To be brutally honest, the current is a hell of a lot better than what I described. For one your savings wont be worthless.

    Caving into the Troika would defer this exact same scenario for what? Three months? Six? Twelve? The Troikas demanded measures are not new. They are the same measures that have been applied by Samaras, Pikrammenos, Papademos, Papandreou to what effect?
    Actually they are not exactly the same. The Troika seems to have moved the goal posts a bit, which worries me. I know how the Greeks in general works. They wont do anything unless forced at gun point.. most countries do it this way, but it is worse the further south you get. I understand that the EU/ECB wants to make sure that Greece is sustainable for the future. The big X-factor here is the IMF, I simply dont trust them. Their track record is horrible and their economic and social agenda reads like the handbook of the GOP more times than not. I suspect that it is not a coincidence that the loan that Greece will default on is one from the IMF.

    The debt has increased under every premier, the unemployment rate risen, poverty increased. Why should anyone have any confidence that even if Tsipras conceded every point, that the Greek economy would ever turn around?

    What do people really expect Greece to do? And what do they think Greece would benefit by doing so?
    I dont disagree. I agree fully with certain aspects of what Tsipras wants. I like the idea of extending the current debt repayments to 50 years with no interest but only once the Greek economy has a budget surplus. I like the idea of privatizing as much as you can but also getting as much for it as possible for these state enterprises. I like the idea of actually using growth policies rather than austerity policies.

    My problem is that, I have worked with Greeks and I know the latin mindset.. and it is not always the best when it comes to sticking to things and this is where I kinda support the attitude of the EU/ECB. Commit and implement those reforms you have promised.. something that Tsipras like his predecessors has not done fully, and then we can talk about debt sustainability which includes debt forgiveness. But that brings me again back to the IMF, who has one motive in all of this.. profit. If I were the EU/ECB, I would simply buy out the IMF and contain it in Europe.
    PeteEU

Page 18 of 33 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •