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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

  1. #141
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Excellent analysis, and this is the reality that the Greeks are facing. It's horrific, but in comparison with the alternative, isn't it inevitable? Caving into the Troika would defer this exact same scenario for what? Three months? Six? Twelve? The Troikas demanded measures are not new. They are the same measures that have been applied by Samaras, Pikrammenos, Papademos, Papandreou to what effect? The debt has increased under every premier, the unemployment rate risen, poverty increased. Why should anyone have any confidence that even if Tsipras conceded every point, that the Greek economy would ever turn around?

    What do people really expect Greece to do? And what do they think Greece would benefit by doing so?
    The crisis was created by Tsipras.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  2. #142
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    " ‘This is our political alternative to neoliberalism and to the neoliberal process of European integration: democracy, more democracy and even deeper democracy,” said Alexis Tsipras on 18 January 2014 in a debate organised by the Dutch Socialist party in Amersfoort. Now the moment of deepest democracy looms, as the Greek people go to the polls on Sunday to vote for or against the next round of austerity.

    Unfortunately, Sunday’s choice will be between endless austerity and immediate chaos. As comfortable as it is to argue from the sidelines that maybe Grexit in the medium term won’t hurt as much as 30 years’ drag on GDP from swingeing repayments, no sane person wants either. The vision that Syriza swept to power on was that if you spoke truth to the troika plainly and in broad daylight, they would have to acknowledge that austerity was suffocating Greece.
    They have acknowledged no such thing. Whatever else one could say about the handling of the crisis, and whatever becomes of the euro, Sunday will be the moment that unstoppable democracy meets immovable supra-democracy. The Eurogroup has already won: the Greek people can vote any way they like – but what they want, they cannot have..."


    The moral crusade against Greece must be opposed | Zoe Williams | Comment is free | The Guardian
    A crisis created by Tsipras.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  3. #143
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No, he was not. You are completely wrong, and uninformed.
    Finance Minister/Foreign Minister 1989-1992. Cabinet member 2009. Prime Minister 2012-15.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  4. #144
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Finance Minister/Foreign Minister 1989-1992. Cabinet member 2009. Prime Minister 2012-15.
    That is correct, and demonstrates your claim was wrong.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  5. #145
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    They've been " fixing the Stats " ever since they entered the Union under false pretenses
    A fact known to every member of the Troika throughout, and a fraud perpetrated by the people the Troika are now lining up to attempt a bloodless coup. Syriza didn't even exist when this fraud was perpetrated.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  6. #146
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Finance Minister/Foreign Minister 1989-1992. Cabinet member 2009. Prime Minister 2012-15.
    For the record, here's your #111:

    "It's you who doesn't know your history. Samaras was finance minister in the late 90s, before the launch of the Euro, in that period when they were fixing the stats, assisted by Goldman Sachs and with the connivance of the ECB, IMF and other EU countries."
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  7. #147
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Finance Minister/Foreign Minister 1989-1992. Cabinet member 2009. Prime Minister 2012-15.
    Finance Minister for all of three months in 1989.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  8. #148
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    If you read one thing about Greece, read Magda's story.
    ("The project" is the EU)
    " ...Neither do I want to suggest that the project hasn't been a success. Before it was captured by this fatal monetarist fever, it achieved decades of unprecedented peace and prosperity, extraordinary advances in working and consumer rights, and a mingling of cultures and populations which has enriched us all. But I know, in my heart, it is now irrevocably damaged.
    The choice being presented to the Greek people is a difficult one. Stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea, as they say. On one hand, continuing a programme which has decimated the country and its economy, plunged millions into poverty and has killed many thousands. On the other, the complete unknown. No, not automatic Grexit, as some would have you believe. But certainly the possibility of it.
    The side which supports saying "yes" to the disgraceful agreement being offered, in exchange for staying in the Euro, paint it in two ways: First, as a battle between certainty and uncertainty. But that is misleading. Because, by examining our country's trajectory over the past five years, the certainty being offered by a "yes" is a certainty of more misery, more poverty, more humiliation, more degradation. Those recommending "yes" to taking more of the medicine being extended to us, do so in the full knowledge that this medicine is poison. ... "

    https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/126
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that comes in a bucket.

  9. #149
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    the end result is holidays cost exactly the same whether you fly 1-2 hours to Spain or 7-8 hours to Greece.
    Who've you been flying with? 7 hours to fly to Greece??? I flew Manchester - Rhodes two years ago in 4 hours.

    I see his decision as carrying the people with him. Leadership does take difficult decisions but it also means you have to carry people with you sometimes. If the people choose to stay in the Euro then they will have to take the pain to make that happen; if they choose to exit, they need to know about the consequences.

    If the UK was in such dire straits, I would want a say in such a national decision.
    Quite. The current situation is a totally differnt one to that which pertained in January. Greeks need to decide which of the two routes they wish to pursue. If they vote 'yes', I've no doubt that Syriza will stand down and call new elections, and return to opposition, even if they remain the biggest party. The consequences for the Greek people will be no less severe whichever direction they take. What will be different is the impact on the Eurozone. Asian markets today have already given the Troika fair warning that their intransigence will impact as much on the Euro as on the Greeks. The Euro has fallen rapidly against the dollar on early trading.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  10. #150
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I don't think our voters are as volatile as the Greeks, but you never know.
    Jack, I hope we never find out, but I've found that where money is concerned, everyone becomes volatile if they think they may lose theirs, no matter what country they're in! Yahoo has pictures showing Greek people emptying their bank accounts and ATMs all over the country, probably thinking they can always redeposit it if the worst doesn't happen, but in the meantime they feel a little more secure if it's in their pocket! The big players probably do a wire transfer to another safer country, but it's still just a way of gaining the same end result - protecting what they consider their money! Human nature again.

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