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Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen.Seven View Post
    It's amusing that a government formed as the result of essentially a tax revolt has three branches that bend over backwards to increase/defend taxation (via mandated subsidies or otherwise) by the most convoluted/Alice-in-Wonderland reasoning. This latest decision by SCOTUS is just part of the pattern, where the actual literal wording of the law passed was ignored to effect the new agenda: states aren't bending to federal incentives to set up their own exchanges, so the trigger built in to get buy-in backfired and hence needs to be judicially changed to make the "intention" of the law "work" rather than the law itself.

    The individual mandate decision three years ago was another example of this: it's not a tax otherwise SCOTUS couldn't rule on it (since it hadn't affected anyone yet) but it was a tax hence congress had authority to implement it.

    I really think this country is no longer a nation of laws, but rather policies. For instance, it is still technically illegal to enter the US illegally, but the policy is not to enforce this law. Marijuana is still technically illegal federally but the policy is not to enforce this law in states that have decriminalized it despite the clear applicabilty of the supremcy clause. For instance, if a state made NFA firearms explicitedly legal and subject to the same laws governing non-NFA weapons, I suspect the policy would be to invoke the supremacy clause in short order along with aggressive ATF enforcement.
    A lot of history ignorance and modern news ignorance.

    I seem to remember that it wasn't so much a "tax revolt" but more of a complaint about self-governance. The Boston Tea Party saw a group put together by local merchants who didn't care for the fact that the tea being brought in was cheaper than the prices they had levied before the monarchy took control of the tea trade.

    Error #1: "the policy is not to enforce this law" During the Obama years, more border crossers have been arrested, more detainees have been returned to their home countries and the Border Patrol has doubled in numbers.

    Error #2: "Marijuana is still technically illegal federally but the policy is not to enforce this law in states that have decriminalized it despite the clear applicabilty of the supremcy clause." DEA Raids 2 Los Angeles Medical Marijuana Dispensaries
    DEA raids four Denver marijuana sites related to VIP Cannabis - The Denver Post
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...IOL/story.html
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Worse Than the Supremes: Obamacare Economics - Larry Kudlow, IBD

    The judicial decision to uphold all of the president's health care subsidies may be very disappointing, but the economics of Obamacare are far worse than whatever constitutional mistakes have been committed by the Supreme Court.
    The economics of Obamacare are very bad. The law is inflicting broad damage on job creation and new business formation. It ruins job incentives by making it pay more not to work, thereby intensifying a labor shortage that is holding back growth and in turn lowering incomes and spending.
    And across-the-board Obamacare tax increases are inflicting heavy punishment on investment -- right when the U.S. economy desperately needs more capital as a way of solving a steep productivity decline.
    Because of Obamacare, there's an additional 0.9 percent Medicare tax on salaries and self-employment income, a 3.8 percent tax increase on capital gains and dividends, a cap on health care flexible spending accounts, a higher threshold for itemized medical expense deductions, and a stiff penalty on employer reimbursements for individual employee health policy premiums.
    Each of these tax hikes is anti-growth and anti-job. . . .


    and your thoughts?

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen.Seven View Post
    It's amusing that a government formed as the result of essentially a tax revolt has three branches that bend over backwards to increase/defend taxation (via mandated subsidies or otherwise) by the most convoluted/Alice-in-Wonderland reasoning. This latest decision by SCOTUS is just part of the pattern, where the actual literal wording of the law passed was ignored to effect the new agenda: states aren't bending to federal incentives to set up their own exchanges, so the trigger built in to get buy-in backfired and hence needs to be judicially changed to make the "intention" of the law "work" rather than the law itself.

    The individual mandate decision three years ago was another example of this: it's not a tax otherwise SCOTUS couldn't rule on it (since it hadn't affected anyone yet) but it was a tax hence congress had authority to implement it.

    I really think this country is no longer a nation of laws, but rather policies. For instance, it is still technically illegal to enter the US illegally, but the policy is not to enforce this law. Marijuana is still technically illegal federally but the policy is not to enforce this law in states that have decriminalized it despite the clear applicabilty of the supremcy clause. For instance, if a state made NFA firearms explicitedly legal and subject to the same laws governing non-NFA weapons, I suspect the policy would be to invoke the supremacy clause in short order along with aggressive ATF enforcement.
    per the literal wording of the law, we can't have the Air Force, for example.
    slippery slope, and a real dangerous way of being stuck in 18th century technology (2A, etc).

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeard View Post
    So you've never shopped for a lower priced service. Yet complain about the price of services. Hmm! What on earth could be the problem here?

    To the guy questioning the value of deductibles to price sensitivity and market dynamics: see utter lack of both above. And misdirected consumer angst that results from lack thereof.
    It's funny. This used to be the hardcore Conservative position on healthcare.

    Now it's the 'Conservatives' whining about things like high deductibles and being forced to pay high prices for things they want (but don't necessarily need).
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Thanks for the reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    My comments were looking mainly at the politics of the issue. From what I can see, there isn't a hope in hell that the Democrats will win back the House in 2016 and chances are very good that the Senate will remain, marginally, in Republican hands. As such, Republicans will run the agenda in Congress for the foreseeable future. Hillary Clinton is pretty much despised in most Republican circles and also remembered for her disaster of healthcare reform in the early 90s that first brought her arrogance to light. There are few Republicans who will work to fix the ACA with Clinton as President. With a Republican President, and one like Jeb Bush, the Republicans will then own the ACA and it will be in their best interests to fix it, politically. Someone like Bush, a policy wonk and an even tempered person, can bring compromise to the table and bring a majority of both parties to reform.
    You make a pretty good argument here. I still have a hard time seeing a GOP President making positive changes to the ACA besides castrating it, but Governor Bush would be one guy who might not. I think you're assessment of Secretary Clinton's efficacy is likely right-on-the-mark. She'd probably do some minor stuff using Executive Order as President Obama's been doing, though

    The reason I suggested an expansion of Medicaid is because the original rationale for the ACA was that too many poor people lacked any insurance - it's a legitimate concern in a first world nation - the way to solve it is for the federal government to self-insure them. Why subsidize payments to an insurance company to pad their profit margins when you can simply on a cost basis provide the care needed? If that had been done originally, the majority of people, most of whom liked their insurance, wouldn't have been nearly as opposed. And that truly would have been the first step towards a universal healthcare program in your system. When it was shown that the services could be provided at a lesser cost per patient than under the previous system, more Americans would have been interested in buying in.
    Good rational.

    You might be on to something here. I also would've liked to see a MediCare buy-in option for the middle-class as another option. But you are absolutely right: the insurers profit & administrative costs eat up 27% of the healthcare pie, while MedicAid overhead is only 5%. That's a savings of over 22% and that savings would essentially cover all those currently uninsured! There's no reason for profiteering insurance companies causing parasitic losses.

    As for having ancestors in and from Canada, they can probably tell you that our healthcare system has problems and isn't universally equal across the Provinces. As an example, pharmacare, or what is basically prescription medicine coverage, isn't part of our healthcare package. But in Quebec, the Provincial government subsidizes that far more than other provinces. Our system provides for basic coverages universally but much of today's healthcare services and needs are not covered. But the benefit we do have and the comfort we generally feel, is that if we ever get really, deadly, sick our care for the most part is covered and we don't have financial concerns related to health.
    Yeah, the lack of prescription coverage is an oddity to an outsider looking-in, but at least Canadian prescriptions don't suffer from as much excess price profiteering as in the States.

    And your final sentence echos my relatives greatest concerns when they last visited, ironically during the 'town halls' summer prior to legislating the bill: They are pretty aghast that Americans lose their homes and go bankrupt by virtue of happening to get randomly sick through no fault of their own. For all the GOP bandying-about that summer about how Canadians are fleeing Canada for American healthcare, my relatives did not find this representative at all - they were pretty blown-away by how the were being characterized.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Many Republicans certainly seem to think that, but again, as we discussed earlier, it actually slowed the rate at which prices were increasing.
    Lol !!

    If it wasn't affordable to begin with, ( why we needed ObamaCare ) how is it more affordable after cost increase ?

    Your party lied and has been lying ever since.

    Its why you got your asses handed to you in 2014. Its why your Politicans has to keep a lid on discussing the ACA

    The ACA isn't going to get better before 2016. Is going to get worse.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    It's funny. This used to be the hardcore Conservative position on healthcare.

    Now it's the 'Conservatives' whining about things like high deductibles and being forced to pay high prices for things they want (but don't necessarily need).
    Your idiot Politicians lied, and their idiot supporters believed those lies.

    They STILL believe the lies.

    Looking forward to more Democrats pretending that ObamaCare doesn't exist in 2016 elections, and then losing.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Your idiot Politicians lied, and their idiot supporters believed those lies.

    They STILL believe the lies.

    Looking forward to more Democrats pretending that ObamaCare doesn't exist in 2016 elections, and then losing.
    Yeah. I remember that was the GOP line in 2012 too.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Lol !!

    If it wasn't affordable to begin with, ( why we needed ObamaCare ) how is it more affordable after cost increase ?

    Your party lied and has been lying ever since.

    Its why you got your asses handed to you in 2014. Its why your Politicans has to keep a lid on discussing the ACA

    The ACA isn't going to get better before 2016. Is going to get worse.
    Yep. NEXT year!
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Lol !!

    If it wasn't affordable to begin with, ( why we needed ObamaCare ) how is it more affordable after cost increase ?

    Your party lied and has been lying ever since.

    Its why you got your asses handed to you in 2014. Its why your Politicans has to keep a lid on discussing the ACA

    The ACA isn't going to get better before 2016. Is going to get worse.
    You seem to just be playing dumb at this point... I already addressed that squarely and you had no reply.

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