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Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Its works for the people in charge.
    OK, but you're not in charge, or I don't think you are.

    So, go ahead, don't file or pay your taxes, etc. You should be fine...

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    You may feel that interstate highways are irrelevant. Many would disagree.
    "Many" think aliens will beam them into their spaceships and take them away.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    No, that's the level at which you are being subsidised. It's what you owe, not what you are owed.
    I pay what I owe, I don't get a cent from what you owe.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    History leads to the present.
    And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's ass hopping. Still irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    It would be much more expensive or even impossible for you to maintain yer car if the industry had gone under.
    How much more expensive exactly? Tell me all about the hypothetical increase that never happened ... fact is you don't know what would happen nor would anyone else. For all we know the costs would have stayed the same or gone down or new car companies would have taken their place and we'd be better off. Therefore, another irrelevant and non-fact based opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    So what?
    And a great argument point. Well done!


    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    Going to jail (prison, more likely) is a choice, but again the legal requirement to pay taxes is irrelevant in this context.
    Is it a reasonable choice?


    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    The sky isn't always blue, not all dogs bark, and I don't think of ice as being wet. But these concluding observations of yers are pretty much consistent with one aspect of the rest of yer comments — seemingly pointless.
    That you don't think, as you said, is the main issue.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    1. force small business to provide health insurance at $17K/yr. or a $2,000 fine - they will pay the fine and save $15,000
    2. force then to pay $15/hr min wage - insuring they will never opt for insuring employees.
    There is a ban moon on the rise.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    How do you think Obamacare is going to paid for? Only a liberal believes govt. programs don't cost any money and won't add to the debt. Guess we just woke up and 18.2 trillion dollars appeared on the books, larger than the U.S. economy.
    Only conservatives appear to think that the economics of mandated large-scale insurance risk pools somehow magically change when proposed by the Heritage foundation but get implemented by Democrats.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    1. force small business to provide health insurance at $17K/yr. or a $2,000 fine - they will pay the fine and save $15,000
    2. force then to pay $15/hr min wage - insuring they will never opt for insuring employees.
    There is a ban moon on the rise.
    Why were small businesses providing insurance to begin with, when there was no fine?

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    This is really disappointing.. I mean, I can read, and at worst I was suspecting that the SC would send it back to congress to fix, NOT interpret intent.. To me, that is not the role of the SCOTUS, and never has been. Sending it back for revision was the right call, unfortunately the robes got this one very wrong.

    Tim-
    Seems to me The Supreme Court decided intent ( belief ) in the Hobby Lobby case. Even if a pill or BC device does not cause an abortion...if the closely held company's belief ( intent ) is does cause one than the closely held company is exempt from covering it in their insurance for their employees.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    no I don't owe you anything. you are responsible for yourself. I don't work to pay for you I work to provide for my family. no people don't join socieities to take care of each other.
    That is simply false. But, for the fun of it, tell me: why do you think people join societies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    no you are free to live in a place where everyone pays for everything for you. I hear cuba, china, north korea are nice this time of year.
    I don't want to live in a society where everything is socialized. Nor do I think pure communism is an ideal economic or governmental model--and I have never said otherwise. However, some socialization is good, and socialized health care would be a good, in my view.

    That said, you're simply dodging the point, which was about why societies exist--to wit, taking care of all the individual members, who would do far worse living on their own. We survive better and have longer and more enjoyable lives living as part of a collective, with certain things guaranteed by society as a whole. It's not an argument against the notion that X is good to say that too much of X is bad. For instance: two aspirin when you have a headache is good. Two whole bottles of aspirin is bad. Similarly, some socialization is good. Too much is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    Liberals squashed it as well. so yes it was a lie.
    For this to be true, it would be necessary for a semi-large contingent of liberals to have argued against, and taken active steps to shut down, the single-payer option. Can you point to some such coalition or group that is both certifiably liberal and who argued thusly?

    Just to be clear: I imagine your definition of liberal and mine are fairly different. Obama is not "far left," for example, and neither are Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, or the like. Find someone like Bernie Sanders, Barbara Boxer, Noam Chomsky, or etc. who took steps to kill the single-payer option.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    what they propse is actual competition in the market place obamacare is not competition in the market place. what the article proposes is allowing for people to buy insurance across state lines which is something republicans have proposed for years.
    Yes, the article does propose that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    that is true market competition. obamacare doesn't allow you to buy insurance across state lines.
    I disagree. Section 1333 allows states to enter into compacts which allow insurance sales across state lines. I bought my insurance on the market place from BCBS of Texas--I don't live in Texas.

    The arrangement is similar to any other mass marketing of a necessary commodity. I can cross state lines and buy a candy bar without the two states in question having any formal agreement. But (for good reason) I cannot simply plop down a huge factory farm in, say, Iowa and ship all my produce to California without abiding by some regulations, some of which are drawn by the Federal government, others of which are decided by inter-state compact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    if the article only said what you thought it said but it didn't.
    Didn't it? The question was whether conservatives think that opening exchanges would reduce prices of health care or not. You said, in post 345, something to the effect that this was a lie which almost every republican knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    obamacare is not true competition that is why almost all insurance companies are seeking 1-30 and in some cases 70% increases in their premium rates for next year.
    it is why in the first year insurance premiums soared 40% on average across the nation. it is why the 2nd year we saw 20-40% increases.
    I agree with this, but not for the same reasons. We simply cannot have competition in health care coverage. I don't mean that we ought not to have--i.e. that there's some moral imperative about it (although I do think such imperative exists). Rather, I think the simple fact is that big businesses, and insurance in particular, will always be subject to some level of collusion. It's to insurers' advantage to drive up prices, and if all of them do it, offering slightly different bells and whistles, they'll all make more money.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    It doesn't matter how it is done. you can't demand insurance companies provide X services and then think it is going to lower costs.
    it isn't.
    Don't mistake cost for price. The cost is disconnected from the price in the case of health insurance and health care.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    What a law actually says no longer matters - what is important is only what those supporting it really meant it to say.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    One interesting point that seems to float around this thread is whether the justices overstepped their bounds by attempting to understand the intent behind the law, rather than give it a purely literal reading.

    I'm a little surprised this point has legs. One of the pillars of statutory construction in jurisprudence for roughly the last three centuries has been to figure out the intent of the legislature. This, for a simple reason: language is not perfect, and people who use language even less so. However carefully something is worded, it will never perfectly express the intent of the person doing the wording. Questions of interpretation will arise, and it would be simply foolish to ignore intent.

    That said, words and phrases do not have fixed meanings. If we're at a party and I say "well, all the beer is gone," people don't suddenly fall on their knees and cry to the skies "why, O Lord, why!?!" I don't mean all the beer in the world is gone. I just mean, all the beer in our supply is gone. But if I instead say "all the dinosaurs are gone," people don't leave the party expecting to run into dinosaurs. The meaning of "all" changes from one sentence to the next. Similarly, if I say the price of a Ferrari is higher than the price of a Toyota, no one goes to the Ferrari dealer looking up to the sky to find the prices. Words change meaning in context, and part of context is the intent of the speaker (or, in this case, writers).
    Last edited by ashurbanipal; 06-26-15 at 08:07 AM.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeard View Post
    That's not how Medicaid works anymore. Medicaid--which was expanded by the ACA--is largely in the hands of risk-bearing private insurance companies. Bush and Rubio both played a role in privatizing Florida's Medicaid program, for instance.
    At the states level, that might have been most beneficial to the state's taxpayers if the federal government wasn't sufficiently funding it. That same action takes place here in Canada where Provinces allow private services where the federal healthcare system doesn't fund a service while all other private services are illegal under the Canada Health Act. I don't have sufficient information to make an informed comment about why Florida went the way it did. I suspect it was related to the government services administrative costs of the program rather than the program itself.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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