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Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    As I said, if we're honest our opinion about the correctness of the decision is highly correlated with how we feel about the law.
    ...
    I don't think either of us is a constitutional law expert so I don't see the point of arguing the fine points of constitutional law. But if you'd like to read the different opinions about this case, here's the SCOTUS blog's rundown of various opinions. What you'll find is some of the best experts discussing why, obviously, Roberts was correct, and other experts discussing why, clearly, Scalia was.

    They didn't make an "error." They interpreted the law differently than the dissent. Ultimately the majority decided that had Congress intended to provide subsidies ONLY state exchanges, they would have made that clear, not hidden the "intent" so well that no one, literally, in Congress mentioned or debated this outcome, nor did the states know of the consequences of deferring to the Feds when they made their decision about setting up the exchange. As one commenter quotes Scalia in another context, "Congress does not hide elephants in mouse holes.”
    Nonsense, the decision was legally indefensible EXCEPT to the shameless or delusional - unless one wishes to ignore the Constitution's separation of powers and embrace SCOTUS as our true oligarchy of nine - which, I suspect, the majority do. On the other hand, we are spared a Republican clown act of trying to save the program in order to avoid blame, and it gives them a platform to continue to use OC (or Scotus care) as a target.

    There is nothing remarkable in the opinion, other than it barely pretends to have a legal basis to what, I am sure, the majority know to be little more than a finding based on fear of (or opposition to) the actual written law. One sensed that at times Roberts wrote with a wink, not unlike the Russian Judge in the Khodorkovsky trial...except that trial the judge laughed earlier with the defense, and then did his oligarchy duty and gave the tycoon the maximum new sentence.

    Perhaps most let their view of Obamacare shape their opinion - rather, my view of law shapes my opinion of the legality of Obamacare.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    Talk is cheap; impeach them or deal with their decision. I applaud it!
    You applaud it b/c you don't care for the rule of law, i.e. you don't care if the government is constrained from imposing dictates upon you.

    Congratulations, you are just like every other serf that has lived and died under the rule of oligarchs who are smarter and more ruthless than you - you deserve the fate that awaits you

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    There is a perverse pleasure watching our right-wing friends post page after page of how this now settled law is somehow not a law just because they were sure the SCOTUS would rule in their favor. There must be some tear-soaked keyboards in the rooms of some of our most fundamental right wing nuts here at the DP.
    unconstutional acts from a body that is supposed to uphold the constitution they deserve the scorn that they get.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    ie I can't actually address the issue with any kind of logic.
    I don't owe you healthcare.
    I'm not sure where the "logic" remark comes from. Feel free to use as much logic as you want.

    Actually, you do owe me health care, just as I owe you health care. Everyone in society owes everyone else a certain set of duties, and that's one of them. It always has been, since roughly the beginning of the human race. People join societies and take care of each other. In a very large society, such as ours, we pay taxes, and those monies are administered. Usually (unfortunately) they're not administered fairly, and I think we could do better, but that's just how it is. Again, you're free to live under the alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    The public option wasn't just squashed by republicans but democrats as well. so this pandering lie is done and over with.
    What lie did I tell? What I said was not that republicans had squashed the public option, but that conservatives did so.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    no only democrats were saying that almost every republican knew that this was a lie as well.
    Hmmm...it seems to me this is false.

    Here, for example, is an article apparently paid for by the Heritage Foundation on the subject:

    Competition in the Health Care Market: The Next Revolution

    They're pretty republican-heavy, aren't they?

    Also, apparently Senator Ron Johnson (R-Wis) thinks this is one of the things Republicans have proposed before:

    Republicans have proposed many solutions to control health care costs and improve quality, Ron Johnson says | PolitiFact

    Ron Paul seems also to think competition would lower costs:

    Health Care

    I'm sure I could find more if I wanted to spend an hour or two looking for old press releases and such. Now, please note I do not say that conservative democrats didn't harp on the competition bit. Only that republicans did, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin
    you can't force coverage on people and expect prices to decrease.
    Depends on how it's done. I would agree with you that the ACA is far from a perfect solution to our health care problems.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    The roads in my State are paid by my state, county roads like the one I live on are paid for by taxes taken at the county level. Unless you live in my county or my state, what and how much exactly do you pay that I would "enjoy" exactly? Quantify it for me.
    Impossible, of course. But then again, that works against the notion that you (or anyone else, including Ludin) pays a certain quantifiable amount to anyone. Anyway, I'm not sure why quantifiability is relevant. By way of analogy: we could never count the grains of sand in the Sahara Desert. Does that mean there's no sand in the Sahara, or that the grains didn't come from somewhere specific?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    I pay my own way - I enjoy Netflix ... do you pay my Netflix bill? I enjoy my internet service, I enjoy my car... did you subsidize my car and how much did you subsidize so that I can thank you properly?
    See above about amounts, but I very likely did subsidize your car, and Netflix, for that matter (at least to the extent the service makes use of the Internet). Me and the roughly 150 million other taxpayers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    The justice system was here before you or I paid taxes to support it and it will be here long after
    If everyone stopped paying taxes, there would be no justice system. Taxation is not a sufficient condition for a justice system, but it is a necessary one, and hence lays claim to being a cause thereof. Furthermore, if enough people stopped paying taxes, there wouldn't be a justice system, and that system is degraded the less revenue is available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    I "enjoy" the benefits of the justice system... hm... I guess I could say I benefit by it's existence but I don't really have a choice if I want to continue to live in the United States
    What was that Conservative rallying cry after Katrina? It was something to the effect that the people in New Orleans had chosen to live there, so they didn't deserve any help. I don't know whether you took that stance, but if you did, this sounds pretty inconsistent to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    So let me just state for the record, you don't pay anything that you don't already have to pay by LAW... by LAW you and I pay taxes which keep interstate roads, which keep an military, which keeps a government. We do not have a choice, yet you want me to THANK you for paying your LAWFUL taxes because I benefit by you doing what you have no choice but to do - and that is pay your taxes if you indeed make enough money per year to qualify.
    My use of the word "thank" was a figure of speech--sort of like "thanks to global warming, we'll have more hurricanes this year" or "thanks to a loophole in the applicable laws, corporation x was able to get away with poisoning its employees," or etc.

    But that said, I'm not sure why you shouldn't be grateful to live in a society. As I said to Ludin, the alternative is available. If you don't like Somalia, you could always hike your way up to the extreme north of Canada or Siberia or something and truly make your own way. Good luck with that--if you don't die in the first six months, you'll likely be insane by the end of the first year. The alternative is to seek to company of others and live by implicit agreement to take care of each other.
    Last edited by ashurbanipal; 06-25-15 at 10:55 PM.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    You may not like it, but the Supremes decide what is Constitutional--always have.

    I doubt if you were calling the decisions on voting rights and citizens united 1.0 and 2.0 unconstitutional.
    I didn't like those decisions--but they're the law of the land.

    And you may not be happy with their next big decision--on gay marriage .

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    unconstutional acts from a body that is supposed to uphold the constitution they deserve the scorn that they get.
    Chemists Have Solutions .

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Give up your insurance and go with Obamacare.
    I did just that. I support the Act and I felt it was my patriotic duty to join in the effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Jimmy Carter let Americans rot in Tehran.
    They all came back alive.

    >>25 million people were losing their coverage

    Part of that was what's called churn, a regular pattern. And, as was pointed out by another poster, the ACA cleaned out a lot of sham policies.

    >>See how that works?

    You should now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    There is a reason that these programs have trillions in unfunded liabilities.
    Indeed there is. They are pay-as-you-go. In that sense, it's foolish to even say they have unfunded liabilities.

    >>When will you hold your politicians accountable for spending the funds you contributed to SS?

    Money has been borrowed from the Trust Fund. It's paid back with interest.
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man Anna walks away

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    Nonsense, the decision was legally indefensible EXCEPT to the shameless or delusional - unless one wishes to ignore the Constitution's separation of powers and embrace SCOTUS as our true oligarchy of nine - which, I suspect, the majority do. On the other hand, we are spared a Republican clown act of trying to save the program in order to avoid blame, and it gives them a platform to continue to use OC (or Scotus care) as a target.

    There is nothing remarkable in the opinion, other than it barely pretends to have a legal basis to what, I am sure, the majority know to be little more than a finding based on fear of (or opposition to) the actual written law. One sensed that at times Roberts wrote with a wink, not unlike the Russian Judge in the Khodorkovsky trial...except that trial the judge laughed earlier with the defense, and then did his oligarchy duty and gave the tycoon the maximum new sentence.

    Perhaps most let their view of Obamacare shape their opinion - rather, my view of law shapes my opinion of the legality of Obamacare.
    Where and when did you get your law degree? Where did you practice and do you still practice?

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There is no voter who would oppose the Repub to protect ACA who would ever have voted for the Repub anyway.
    You think there is not one Republican or undecided who would lose their insurance if the ACA was "repealed"? LOL

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Your question has zero relevance to the conversation you jumped into.
    It certainly does. I just gave you a reference that uses the word "State" to mean the Federal Govt. Then you have "Head of State" which refers to the President and there's Secretary of State". They all use the word "State" to refer to the Federal Govt. But I think the SC got it right like Robert's said, for the reason that only an idiot would think they wrote the law so that it would fail on purpose. They never expected the modern GOP I guess. Their idiocy has reached new heights with each passing year.

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