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Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

  1. #181
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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Amen brother! That's really the one thing that I never did get about the ACA opposition. The ACA removes a HUGE burden and obstacle to getting out from under some corporate yoke and starting your own business. I just couldn't understand why 'free market' types almost never mentioned it as a potential upside for the small business person. I at least expected it as, "sure, this is potentially a great deal for entrepreneurs, but...not worth the cost" or whatever. but I never saw the first part...
    I agree.

    And the Dems really didn't sell that facet (or the ACA in general, as time went on) well.

    Universal healthcare, especially single-payer (with private provider), means more freedom in a lot of practical personal ways, even though it introduces more government control, too.

    I really think the GOP are better at unified messaging than the Dems.
    Last edited by Chomsky; 06-25-15 at 02:02 PM. Reason: add 'personal' to 'practical'
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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    That bolded part is not compatible with the truth.
    "I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family's premium by up to $2,500 a year." June 23, 2007

    Standard advertising technique. He was saying that during the campaign. The legislation hadn't even been drafted. Maybe if he'd gotten what he wanted …

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    A statement you prove untrue as you employ yet another liar's tactic with this post - move those goalposts. If you read the sources you agree with that premiums are not rising as quickly as they were, you'd know they were using rises during certain quarters of President Bush's time as a contrast to determine that.
    ????

    What do years like 2008 have to do with what I posted? My sources referred to ACA rates in 2013-16.
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  3. #183
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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If we're honest, whether the dissent or the majority was "right" is probably about 90% correlated with our view on our support or opposition to the law.
    That is issue avoidance. It is not the job of the Supreme Court to change legislation based on their own political view of the Act in question, nor are they to poll the public, nor are they to ask me or you or anyone else. They are to interpret in concert with the Constitution, not change up the wording of the legislation at their discretion.

    It is the same basic problem, the courts today agreed with an argument made by the government that is not supported by the language of the actual ACA text. That is clear cut judicial activism.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But the bottom line is the dissent and you are arguing that Congress intended a result, on one of the biggest provisions in the bill, that received no debate in Congress - not one second - and that no one, including the states when they decided whether or not to establish exchanges, even knew about.
    We are talking about a 800+ page legislative effort here and it is bold of you to suggest tax credits and subsidies was the biggest provision of the bill.

    Moreover, the real impact here is passing a legislative effort so large in scope that it has inherent mistakes. That is on Congress to repair, not the Supreme Court to change up to satisfy a government request to ignore the original text.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So Scalia is arguing Congress intended to write the language in such a way so as to not even put the states on notice that their decision to establish or not an exchange determined whether or not their residents got credits. I don't know how anyone can believe that.
    That is the merit of Scalia's argument. "The Court holds that when the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act says “Exchange established by the State” it means “Exchange established by the State or the Federal Government. That is of course quite absurd, and the Court’s 21 pages of explanation make it no less so." ACA had language in it to deal with States that did not set up an exchange, so you would think it would have been natural for ACA to account for that in dealing with Tax Credits and Subsidies. But some 7 times in the document it explicitly says "Exchange established by the State."

    No matter if it was legislative mistake or an afterthought argument to account for something not going to plan, the remedy is the same. On the merit of the case the government should have lost, forcing Congress to handle the mistake. But, the courts decided to go along with an argument that specifically goes against the wording of ACA. You cannot avoid that.

    You would have a point (perhaps) if we were talking about once sentence in the document, some false explanation for ACA, exchanges and the States. But ACA clearly did account for States that could not or would not establish an exchange, and then they failed to account for that in the 7 places in the document that says nothing about tax credits and subsidies set up by the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

    No matter what was said on the floor of Congress, no matter what Obama said at the mic ACA legislation had a mistake. It is on Congress to remedy, not the courts to do so in their place.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    That's okay around here, there are like 12 to your every one.....that didn't. Did you want to stick up for them? Tell more to not to work....don't worry can still get BO care.
    Well, I don't know about your number, but we are going to pay for them one way or another. If they don't have insurance they will use the emergency room and the expense will be even more. With insurance there is preventive care that should cut down on both health problems and thus trips to the emergency rooms.

    BTW, I highly doubt your number of lazy people who won't work. My neighborhood is over 90% Hispanic. In the morning and during the day it is a ghost town here. All the men are working and many of the women are also. The other women are taking care of the children.

    Maybe it's like what you describe where you live but not here.

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Otherwise, I'm not sure why you think Republicans should abandon their beliefs and become liberals and support Obama. Why don't the Democrats just join the Republicans instead, and get rid of the bill? What's wrong with them? Why won't they work with Republicans? They seem to be very hostile to Republicans on this law.
    I don't suppose that would have something to do with removing affordable health insurance from millions of people? Or reinstituting pre-existing conditions?

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    Unsubstantiated. More Fentonian bull****, I expect.



    Same thing. Just story-telling. Zero evidence.



    Sounds good. Maybe we can get a beer hall putsch going.



    One of yer more convincing arguments.



    Hey, it goes back to 2008. When do you think "unemployment started rising"?



    After six years of conflict and divisiveness based on irresponsible, right-wing temper tantrums, …

    >>you now have, according to that, slightly less than 45 million people without coverage.

    According to what?

    New federal data released Tuesday reveal that 36 million people in the United States were uninsured in 2014. That number marks a significant drop from the 48.6 million Americans without insurance in 2010, the year the Affordable Care Act was signed into law.

    The new data from the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) are based on interviews with 111,682 people. The findings show that the number of uninsured Americans of all ages dropped to 36 million in 2014 from 44.8 million in 2013. "That's pretty sharp," says study author Robin A. Cohen, a statistician at the NCHS.

    "This is another set of data tracking what I think has become a pretty broad consensus that the Affordable Care Act is having a significant impact on reducing uninsurance," says Sabrina Corlette, a senior research fellow and project director at the Center for Health Insurance Reforms at Georgetown University (who was not involved with the research.) — "The Number of Uninsured Americans Continues to Drop," Time, June 23, 2015


    Here's a report on another survey: "America's Uninsured Rate Is Down To 10% - And Falling," Forbes, June 16, 2015


    Wow, trolling post of the year there!

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  7. #187
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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Yeah, and the LeftWad can never get it back.....ever.




    California (lack of affordability, 'tepid' enrollment): "After using most of $1 billion in federal start-up money, California's Obamacare exchange is preparing to go on a diet. That financial reality is reflected in Covered California's proposed budget, released Wednesday, as well as a reduced forecast calling for 2016 enrollment of fewer than 1.5 million people. The recalibration comes after tepid enrollment growth for California during the second year of the Affordable Care Act. The state ended open enrollment in February with 1.4 million people signed up, far short of its goal of 1.7 million. A number of factors contributed to the shortfall, but health policy experts said that some uninsured folks still find health insurance unaffordable despite the health law's premium subsidies."

    Hawaii (abject failure): "Despite over $205 million in federal taxpayer funding, Hawaii’s Obamacare exchange website will soon shut down...According to the Honolulu Star-Advertiser the Hawaii Health Connector will stop taking new enrollees on Friday and plans to begin migrating to the federally run Healthcare.gov. Outreach services will end by May 31, all technology will be transferred to the state by September 30, and its workforce will be eliminated by February 28. While the exchange has struggled since its creation, it is not for lack of funding. Since 2011 Hawaii has received a total of $205,342,270 in federal grant money from the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). In total, HHS provided nearly $4.5 billion to Hawaii and other state exchanges, with little federal oversight and virtually no strings attached. Despite this generous funding, the exchange has underperformed from day one. In its first year, Hawaii enrolled only 8,592 individuals…" Hawaii joints Maryland, Massachusetts and Oregon among the states that wasted hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars on utterly failed exchanges. A reminder from Phil Kerpen:

    Phil Kerpen Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700] ‎@kerpen Hawaii flushing $205M on failed Obamacare exchange does not dethrone the reigning champs: Oregon, $305M for a site that never even launched. 10:53 PM - 11 May 2015....snip~


    Obamacare Updates: Tale of Fail from Coast to Coast - Guy Benson
    So what you are trying to say is that states may not be competent enough to run their own exchanges.

    You must be ecstatic about the new SCOTUS ruling then..an opposite ruling would have required states to set up exchanges.
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  8. #188
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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    No, it doesn't. The burden of paying for insurance still exists when starting your own business, in fact, it's more expensive now. Before Obamacare new business owners had a great field of group plans to choose from, including some very low cost plans that aren't allowed under Obamacare. Sure they weren't ideal, but they were affordable for the new business owner and beat not having any.
    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Bottom line is group insurance is like all the rest of insurance. Healthy, young workforce = decent options. Sick or old = crap and VERY expensive options. Anyone is too sick = NO options.

    And I don't know about Oregon, but small businesses in Tennessee just don't have a "great field of group plans" to choose from. There are very limited options for what anyone can actually call "insurance" versus mini me prepaid healthcare plans that cap out with any serious illness or accident.
    Boy, doesn't this conversation tie-in directly to our prior discussion!

    That's why I'm for a universal singer-payer/private provider system.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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  9. #189
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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    I'm with you, justabubba -

    An employment based healthcare system is asinine!

    As I commented before: "In severe recession (like 2009), the rest of the civilized world suffers an economic crisis - but we suffer an economic crisis AND a healthcare crisis"!

    Why?

    And in other terms: Why would we want to stifle entrepreneurship by having employees unable to risk new ventures due to putting their families in jeopardy by lacking healthcare?

    It's nonsense.


    Starting a business takes a lot of resources and balls.

    With UHC, yours and your employees health aren't even a part of the equation.
    "Small people talk about people, average people talk about events, great people talk about ideas" Eleanor Roosevelt

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    re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Bull****. Discounts Obama's closed door meetings with insurance execs and promising the act would not include single payer well BEFORE any congressional debate.
    I don't know that's true, but I've read it reported by many liberals who followed the debate and were keyed into leadership. But it doesn't matter - there was zero, none, zilch chance there were 60 votes in the Senate for single payer. There probably weren't 50 legitimate votes if 50 would have done the job.

    Same thing basically with a public option - that didn't have 60 votes. Liberals whined that Obama gave that away, but there were enough democrats loyal to the big insurers that 60 for that was never a realistic option according to those who actually counted the votes.

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