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Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I understand the words, but not how "taxes for healthcare" differs from "Public Expenditure on Health" in the graph, except that the former (taxes for healthcare) can be less than the latter (public spending) due to deficit spending.
    Spending is not taxes.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Spending is not taxes.
    I deleted my earlier response because I went over the line, and I apologize for that, but this is the last on this thread unless you're interested in having an actual debate on the merits of something. You quoted me acknowledging that taxes can be less than spending because of deficits, so it's clear that I well know the difference between taxes and spending.

    But if you have some other point, I'll be glad to address something more substantive than splitting hairs.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    No, that's what I was saying- it didn't cut the budget for Medicare, it saved Medicare money. The ACA subsidies reduced some of the need for Medicare and so forth.

    No, the deficit reduction absolutely did not disappear. For some reason Republicans have been continually claiming that the deficit reduction disappeared, or even that the CBO no longer will reduce the deficit, but that isn't remotely true. In fact, the CBO has confirmed many times, including recently, that it is reducing the deficit. What the Republicans are playing off is confusion about the difference between spending and deficits. Spending was higher than expected, but so were revenues, so it actually reduced the deficits a bit more than the CBO projected.
    I am talking about the CBO and you harp back to Republicans for some reason. Oh well, I guess that I missed all that stuff by people claiming that the PPACA will bend the cost curve down and, coupled with cuts in Medicare payments to providers the PPACA would reduce the deficit. That was the claim that Democrats, PPACA supporters, and the CBO made. And current CBO projections are now stating that the PPACA will cost c. $140 billion a year, Net.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    I am talking about the CBO and you harp back to Republicans for some reason. Oh well, I guess that I missed all that stuff by people claiming that the PPACA will bend the cost curve down and, coupled with cuts in Medicare payments to providers the PPACA would reduce the deficit. That was the claim that Democrats, PPACA supporters, and the CBO made. And current CBO projections are now stating that the PPACA will cost c. $140 billion a year, Net.
    Yes, the ACA does save Medicare money- that's what bending the cost curve down means. But it absolutely does not cut the Medicare budget. You follow?

    No, the CBO absolutely does not say, and has never said, that the ACA will add to the deficit. It has always said, every single time, that the ACA will reduce the deficit.

    What may be tripping you up on the latter is that the CBO responds to questions it gets from legislators and sometimes Republicans try to play games with that. At one point, they asked the CBO to project the impact on the deficit if we kept all the ACA expenditures, but repealed all the revenue components. Obviously then it would add to the deficit. When they got that report, some of the shadier Republican legislators pretended that that meant that the CBO said the ACA would increase the deficit. It sounds like you may have gotten tricked by them.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Yes, the ACA does save Medicare money- that's what bending the cost curve down means. But it absolutely does not cut the Medicare budget. You follow? No, the CBO absolutely does not say, and has never said, that the ACA will add to the deficit. It has always said, every single time, that the ACA will reduce the deficit. What may be tripping you up on the latter is that the CBO responds to questions it gets from legislators and sometimes Republicans try to play games with that. At one point, they asked the CBO to project the impact on the deficit if we kept all the ACA expenditures, but repealed all the revenue components. Obviously then it would add to the deficit. When they got that report, some of the shadier Republican legislators pretended that that meant that the CBO said the ACA would increase the deficit. It sounds like you may have gotten tricked by them.
    What I find interesting is how people tout the CBO when it supports their point of view and ignores CBO When it doesn't. You don't seem to understand that CBO makes projections and their accuracy is about as good as the Obama Administration when it predict things like a stimulus program keeping unemployment below 8%. CBO makes predictions based upon assumptions given them by Congress so if the assumptions are wrong the predictions are wrong. It also appears that you don't understand the difference between deficit and debt. Deficits are yearly and debt is cumulative. Please explain what you mean by reducing the deficit when deficits are yearly and neither you or CBO understand what the yearly deficit is going to be? ACA cannot increase access to millions of high risk people and lower costs, that is impossible no matter how many of the young "Invincible" forced to contribute. You want badly to believe with your heart and not think with your brain. Because you want something to happen doesn't mean that it will.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    Yes, the ACA does save Medicare money- that's what bending the cost curve down means. But it absolutely does not cut the Medicare budget. You follow?

    No, the CBO absolutely does not say, and has never said, that the ACA will add to the deficit. It has always said, every single time, that the ACA will reduce the deficit.

    What may be tripping you up on the latter is that the CBO responds to questions it gets from legislators and sometimes Republicans try to play games with that. At one point, they asked the CBO to project the impact on the deficit if we kept all the ACA expenditures, but repealed all the revenue components. Obviously then it would add to the deficit. When they got that report, some of the shadier Republican legislators pretended that that meant that the CBO said the ACA would increase the deficit. It sounds like you may have gotten tricked by them.
    In addition what you are doing is accepting predictions as fact and ignoring that they are predictions and no one will know the outcome until the program is fully implemented. Predictions are not reality and predictions from the CBO depend on assumptions given them. From CBO

    •Therefore, CBO and JCT cannot readily provide a retrospective analysis of the ACA that is analogous to the cost estimate provided by the agencies in 2010. That problem is not unique to the ACA but is common to most legislation that affects preexisting federal programs.
    The principal obstacle to producing a new estimate for the ACA is that CBO’s cost estimates represent the budgetary effects of legislation relative to the current-law baseline. Because the ACA is part of current law, its budgetary effects would now need to be estimated relative to a counterfactual benchmark that excluded the ACA. CBO does not construct such a counterfactual benchmark for all of the ACA, and attempting to do so would raise significant challenges
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45447

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    In addition what you are doing is accepting predictions as fact and ignoring that they are predictions and no one will know the outcome until the program is fully implemented. Predictions are not reality and predictions from the CBO depend on assumptions given them. From CBO




    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45447
    From your link:


    Moreover, determining the budgetary impact of previously enacted legislation that affects ongoing spending programs or tax receipts becomes more difficult over time as the conditions that would have prevailed in the absence of the original legislation become increasingly uncertain. Thus, in its estimate with JCT of the effects of a proposal to repeal the ACA in July 2012, CBO wrote: “Separating the incremental effects of the provisions in the ACA that affect spending for ongoing programs and revenue streams becomes more uncertain as the time since enactment grows.”

    The largest changes in the estimated effects of the ACA during the past four years that CBO and JCT have separately identified are those associated with the estimated effects of the ACA’s insurance coverage provisions and the elimination of the Community Living Assistance Services and Supports (CLASS) program.

    CBO and JCT’s latest estimate of the cost of the coverage provisions is $100 billion lower than the March 2010 estimate for the period from 2014 through 2019 (2019 was the last year of the 10-year budget window used in the original estimate).
    CBO now estimates the costs in period from 2014 to 2019 will be $100 billion lower than the March 2010 estimate.

    CBO originally estimated that the CLASS program would yield federal budgetary savings of $70 billion through 2019 (and would have a budgetary cost in later years); however, the Secretary of Health and Human Services announced in 2011 that she did not “see a viable path forward for CLASS implementation.” Combining the reduction in estimated cost of $100 billion and the loss of estimated savings of $70 billion with the original estimate that the ACA would reduce deficits by $124 billion over the 2010–2019 period yields a projected reduction in deficits of more than $150 billion over that period.
    In 2010 the original CBO estimated the ACA would reduce deficients by $124 through 2019.
    The new CBO 2014 estimate is that the ACA will reduce the deficients by more than $150 over the same period.


    The costs and savings that can be attributed to other provisions of the ACA have undoubtedly been affected by many developments in the four years since the law was enacted.
    Economic conditions during the past four years and CBO’s projections of the economy in coming years are different from what CBO projected several years ago. The health care and health care financing systems have continued to evolve, and health care spending—both in federal programs and in the private sector—has been below the amounts that CBO expected in early 2010.
    Read more:


    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45447

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Here is the summery from The Updated Estimates of the Effects of the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act, April 2014April 2014 cost estimate


    CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) have updated their estimates of the budgetary effects of the provisions of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) that relate to health insurance coverage. The new estimates, which are included in CBO’s latest baseline projections, reflect CBO’s most recent economic forecast, account for administrative actions taken and regulations issued through March 2014, and incorporate new data and various modeling updates.

    Relative to their previous projections made in February 2014, CBO and JCT now estimate that the ACA’s coverage provisions will result in lower net costs to the federal government: The agencies currently project a net cost of $36 billion for 2014, $5 billion less than the previous projection for the year; and $1,383 billion for the 2015–2024 period, $104 billion less than the previous projections (see the figure below).
    ...read more:

    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45231

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    From your link:



    CBO now estimates the costs in period from 2014 to 2019 will be $100 billion lower than the March 2010 estimate.



    In 2010 the original CBO estimated the ACA would reduce deficients by $124 through 2019.
    The new CBO 2014 estimate is that the ACA will reduce the deficients by more than $150 over the same period.



    Read more:


    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45447
    Estimates, Predictions? do you understand what those mean? What happens if those assumptions don't happen? We have another entitlement program that will put us trillions more in debt or unfunded liabilities. Why doesn't that cross your mind.

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    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Here is the summery from The Updated Estimates of the Effects of the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act, April 2014April 2014 cost estimate



    ...read more:

    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45231
    Estimates, Opinions, and Predictions, everyone has one and CBO makes those based upon assumptions they are given or know about. It is the unknown. What cost are the high risk people now enrolled in Obamacare going to generate? What happens if enrollment of the Invincible doesn't meet the projections? What happens if the other projections don't happen?

    Like all liberal social programs they sound good in principle but never achieve the desired goals.

    "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions"

    One meaning of the phrase is that individuals may have the intention to undertake good actions but nevertheless fail to take action.[4][5] This inaction may be due to procrastination, laziness or other subversive vice.[6] As such, the saying is an admonishment that a good intention is meaningless unless followed through
    Last edited by Conservative; 07-05-15 at 11:20 AM.

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