Page 108 of 154 FirstFirst ... 85898106107108109110118 ... LastLast
Results 1,071 to 1,080 of 1534

Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

  1. #1071
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    11-29-16 @ 12:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    576

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    I'm a liberal. We pretty much always side with the consensus of the experts in any given area. Conservatives are driven by ideology. Ideology sometimes matches up with the facts and sometimes not. So, sometimes conservatives are on the same side of an issue as the experts and sometimes not. Liberals are pragmatists. Pragmatists decide which side of an issue to be on by looking at the facts, the practical effects on the real world, the evidence, etc. So, we pretty much side with the facts and experts. Issues where conservatives align with the experts are not politically controversial. The politically controversial issues are where conservative ideology and practical reality diverge, so on politically controversial issues, liberals always are aligned with the experts and conservatives never are. You haven't noticed that yet?
    It is rather presumptuous to assume that one's fellow-travelers are as committed to expert consensus as you claim you are - I live in one of the most liberal areas of the country and associate with many folks from Berkeley. Unless they represent an unusually ignorant and rare form of liberal, I have yet to run into a single one with a strong and righteous opinion that was also informed by experts. In fact, I find them to be no more informed or rational than the local bar pounders.

    Almost to a person they depend on their self-referential myths of the peer group, and various empty platitudes, as their "expertise". In fact, for those that are friends I just let them rant about the poor, the corporations, and various hobgoblins - heaven forbid that we discuss an issue through deductive reasoning or developed moral philosophy. Cliches are the deepest thought they are willing to entertain (I can't even get them to read a critical article in The Atlantic, let alone from a conservative publication).

  2. #1072
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    59,744

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeard View Post
    The new markets have been open for nearly two years, but my primary interest is in the improvements to quality and care delivery that have been going on for 4-5 years now. Health care in America has been reinventing itself--for the better--for half a decade now. You might want to tune in at some point.
    So it did so without ACA? How can that be? It is you that don't seem to get it and have no problem adding another entitlement program knowing the history of entitlement programs and costs. Oh, wait, costs don't matter nor does quality. MA has done it, Hawaii has done it, but you expect the Federal Govt. to implement a nationwide program all because a small percentage of Americans, many of whom by choice, have elected not to participate. Medicaid has generated most of the enrollments and Medicaid was always there but millions didn't know they qualified. Will you ever think with your brain instead of your heart?

  3. #1073
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    59,744

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Not sure if you know....but he doesn't believe 'quality' was part of the ACA.

    He doesn't need fancy studied or 'facts' to know this. He knows it from his gut.
    I don't know if you understand that what is written somehow never comes into being with liberal social programs.

  4. #1074
    Quantum sufficit


    Threegoofs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The birthplace of Italian Beef
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,800

    Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I don't know if you understand that what is written somehow never comes into being with liberal social programs.
    Do you have some Sean Hannity cliche book that you consult for each post, regardless of the topic?

    Guess this one was #45 under 'social programs'.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

  5. #1075
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    59,744

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Do you have some Sean Hannity cliche book that you consult for each post, regardless of the topic?

    Guess this one was #45 under 'social programs'.
    No, what I have is bea.gov, bls.gov, and Treasury data and they don't support your claim about either quality or cost, oh, wait, cost doesn't matter to you

  6. #1076
    Educator
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Last Seen
    07-18-15 @ 12:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    731

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    It is rather presumptuous to assume that one's fellow-travelers are as committed to expert consensus as you claim you are - I live in one of the most liberal areas of the country and associate with many folks from Berkeley. Unless they represent an unusually ignorant and rare form of liberal, I have yet to run into a single one with a strong and righteous opinion that was also informed by experts. In fact, I find them to be no more informed or rational than the local bar pounders.

    Almost to a person they depend on their self-referential myths of the peer group, and various empty platitudes, as their "expertise". In fact, for those that are friends I just let them rant about the poor, the corporations, and various hobgoblins - heaven forbid that we discuss an issue through deductive reasoning or developed moral philosophy. Cliches are the deepest thought they are willing to entertain (I can't even get them to read a critical article in The Atlantic, let alone from a conservative publication).
    I mean, yeah, certainly the individual members of any group are wrong. Even liberals as an entire group can be wrong. But, the liberal position I'm talking about isn't the mix of all the views liberals hold, I mean the established positions that liberals as a whole generally hold. When the general liberal position and the general conservative position differ on a point, the liberal position is almost always more closely aligned with the facts. That isn't because liberals are smarter, more rational or better informed necessarily, it is because liberals as a whole tend to be deciding which side of an issue to take by looking at facts where conservatives tend to pick a side based on ideology. For example, the liberal position on a given tax might be that they support it because it will reduce inequality and inequality is bad because it has effects A, B and C, and because they believe the impact of that tax on growth will be minimal, as found in studies X, Y and Z, and so on, while the conservative position might oppose the same tax for purely ideological reasons that don't depend on factual claims at all. For example, they might think "people should keep what they earn" or that "taxes are theft" or some such ideological stance.

    Pragmatism isn't necessarily inherently superior to ideology. But pragmatists are definitely more aligned with the facts, since that is the material pragmatists work with, where ideologues work with ideological principles.

  7. #1077
    Guru
    Greenbeard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    3,156

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So it did so without ACA? How can that be?
    I'm referring to the myriad payment and delivery system reforms (public and private) the ACA has spurred.

    Will you ever think with your brain instead of your heart?
    I don't think I've ever made an argument based on "heart." To what are you referring?

  8. #1078
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    14,445

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    It is rather presumptuous to assume that one's fellow-travelers are as committed to expert consensus as you claim you are - I live in one of the most liberal areas of the country and associate with many folks from Berkeley. Unless they represent an unusually ignorant and rare form of liberal, I have yet to run into a single one with a strong and righteous opinion that was also informed by experts. In fact, I find them to be no more informed or rational than the local bar pounders.

    Almost to a person they depend on their self-referential myths of the peer group, and various empty platitudes, as their "expertise". In fact, for those that are friends I just let them rant about the poor, the corporations, and various hobgoblins - heaven forbid that we discuss an issue through deductive reasoning or developed moral philosophy. Cliches are the deepest thought they are willing to entertain (I can't even get them to read a critical article in The Atlantic, let alone from a conservative publication).
    Yeah, well, I debate far right wing Fox News watchers all the time. Merely ignorant would be a step up for them. They know stuff that happens to be false, all the time! Personal anecdotes aren't all that informative.....

  9. #1079
    Quantum sufficit


    Threegoofs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The birthplace of Italian Beef
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,800

    Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    No, what I have is bea.gov, bls.gov, and Treasury data and they don't support your claim about either quality or cost, oh, wait, cost doesn't matter to you
    Hmm. You Never cited those. Plus, I don't know why any of those three sources would be useful for quality measures in healthcare.

    I guess you not only don't know the ACA, but you have absolutely no capacity to research it on your own.

    If I didn't know any better, I'd guess you were just some guy making fun of Conservatives by posting like a cartoonish one.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

  10. #1080
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    11-29-16 @ 12:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    576

    Re: Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    I mean, yeah, certainly the individual members of any group are wrong. Even liberals as an entire group can be wrong. But, the liberal position I'm talking about isn't the mix of all the views liberals hold, I mean the established positions that liberals as a whole generally hold. When the general liberal position and the general conservative position differ on a point, the liberal position is almost always more closely aligned with the facts. That isn't because liberals are smarter, more rational or better informed necessarily, it is because liberals as a whole tend to be deciding which side of an issue to take by looking at facts where conservatives tend to pick a side based on ideology. For example, the liberal position on a given tax might be that they support it because it will reduce inequality and inequality is bad because it has effects A, B and C, and because they believe the impact of that tax on growth will be minimal, as found in studies X, Y and Z, and so on, while the conservative position might oppose the same tax for purely ideological reasons that don't depend on factual claims at all. For example, they might think "people should keep what they earn" or that "taxes are theft" or some such ideological stance.

    Pragmatism isn't necessarily inherently superior to ideology. But pragmatists are definitely more aligned with the facts, since that is the material pragmatists work with, where ideologues work with ideological principles.
    I have never been impressed by so-called "pragmatists", mainly because their is not such thing as true pragmatism shorn of normative values - even if those values are unstated and unconscious. Any policy adopted is motivated by normative values; be it the income tax or tax subsidies, and the criteria these policies is one of defining what effects are "good" or "bad" and if those effects are, on net, "better" than another set of results.

    For example, if a policy causes a benefit for group A, at the expense of group B, there is no measure of its "rightness" other than that of a sense of what is morally correct...the only difference is that many ideological conservatives have a principled ideology that provides a moral schema while many liberals 'just know' from the gut that benefiting group a at the expense of group b is "correct".

    Pragmatism is, more often than not, a charade to hide the fact that the so-called pragmatist does not wish to defend the moral underpinnings of his choices.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •