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Thread: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

  1. #21
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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect - the Congress acts as a check on the Executive, exactly as it is supposed to. Meanwhile, they don't get to pretend to be the executive by trying to renegotiate trade deals, which they are not supposed to do.
    not if they can't amend the agreement there is no check and balance.


    The President has the power to make treaties, Congress has the power to vote on whether or not the treaties that the President has made will actually become binding on the United States. Article 2 Section 2 of the US Constitution.
    congress also has the ability to make amendments and they just lost that power.


    That is, in fact, part of doing that job - and it is why they have to do up or down votes on all kinds of Presidential proposals. Judicial appointments, for example. Cabinet-level department heads, for another. Treaties and agreements with foreign countries, for another. Congress has no business trying to figure out who to appoint to be Secretary of State under the President, and they have no business trying to upstage the executive functions in negotiating with foreign countries. The Congress is not our Executive, and we shouldn't allow them to try to be, or expect them to be - our Constitution is designed to limit all three branches of government, not just the Executive.
    no their job is to pass and vote for things in the interest of the people of the US not just give up and down votes.

    If they see something that awful, they can vote it down.
    This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    I might agree with 95% of the bill but not 5% of it. congress should be able to change that 5% not throw the whole thing out.

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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    not if they can't amend the agreement there is no check and balance.
    That is incorrect. As long as the Congress has the ability to veto the Executive, they have a check on its power and the powers are balanced, just as the Executive exercises a veto on the Legislature.

    The Legislature is supposed to be the dominant actor in the realm of Domestic policy. They get to do the negotiating, they get to do the deals, they get to write the laws. The Executive balances them through a check - he can veto, or sign. The Executive is not granted power to rewrite laws to it's own suiting.

    The Executive is supposed to be the dominant actor in the realm of Foreign policy. The executive is the one that does the negotiating, makes the deals, writes the agreements, etc. And, just like in the former, the Legislature balances them through a check - they can veto or approve. The Legislature is not supposed to be granted power to rewrite foreign agreements to it's own suiting any more than the Executive is supposed to be rewriting laws to it's own suiting.

    congress also has the ability to make amendments and they just lost that power.
    Can Congress make amendments to treaties? If not, why do you think the Founders deliberately chose to deny them that ability?

    no their job is to pass and vote for things in the interest of the people of the US not just give up and down votes.
    Again, this is Constitutionally incorrect - part of their job is indeed to provide up or down votes, on a variety of topics, which includes both Presidential appointments and foreign agreements. As laid down by the Constitution. Surely you are not arguing that the Founders and the Constitution do not understand the role of the Legislature?

    I might agree with 95% of the bill but not 5% of it. congress should be able to change that 5% not throw the whole thing out.
    They certainly should not. No more than the Executive ought to be able to toss out or change 5% of a piece of Legislation that gets' passed.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    Can Congress make amendments to treaties? If not, why do you think the Founders deliberately chose to deny them that ability?
    Yes they can until they just passed that fast track bill. now they can't.

    Again, this is Constitutionally incorrect - part of their job is indeed to provide up or down votes, on a variety of topics, which includes both Presidential appointments and foreign agreements. As laid down by the Constitution. Surely you are not arguing that the Founders and the Constitution do not understand the role of the Legislature?
    Nope it is constitutionally correct. in fact it is the Charge of congress not to give up and down votes but to pass laws that benefits the populace.
    they then vote on it but their priority should not be up and down votes.

    They certainly should not. No more than the Executive ought to be able to toss out or change 5% of a piece of Legislation that gets' passed.
    they certainly should have up until passing the fast track bill were able to.

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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    Yes they can until they just passed that fast track bill. now they can't.
    No they cannot. Congress has never had the ability to amend Treaties, the Founders explicitly designed the process so that Congress would get an up-or-down vote so that it acted as a check on the Executive, but did not attempt to act as the Executive.

    Nope it is constitutionally correct.
    Article 2 Begs to differ.

    in fact it is the Charge of congress not to give up and down votes but to pass laws that benefits the populace.
    Cool. Show me where in the Constitution it says that every single appointment vote, and every single vote on foreign treaties has been unconstitutionally designed since the Founders first put this format into place?

    they then vote on it but their priority should not be up and down votes.
    Their priority should be whatever they decide their priority is. However, when it comes to the Balancing of Powers, the Legislative branch has no more business attempting to rewrite treaties and foreign agreements than the Executive does trying to rewrite laws.

    they certainly should have up until passing the fast track bill were able to.
    Again, no. Part of having checks and balances is to actually have checks and balances. The Constitutional system set in place by the founders says you are wrong, and common sense says that you are wrong. The Legislative branch has no more business attempting to rewrite treaties and foreign agreements than the Executive does trying to rewrite laws. We conservatives get pretty upset when the Executive tries to seize Legislative power unto itself by rewriting laws because it damages the Constitutional order, and we should get just as upset when the Legislature tries to seize Executive power unto itself by rewriting foreign agreements. Congress shouldn't be "renegotiating the 5% of a treaty it doesn't like" any more than the President ought to be "rewriting the 5% of a law that he doesn't like".
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Really? Our last Free Trade bill has several companies factories down in Mexico.
    Yes, and our exports to Mexico have grown. In addition, all Americans benefit from lower prices resulting from reduced production costs.
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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Yes, and our exports to Mexico have grown. In addition, all Americans benefit from lower prices resulting from reduced production costs.
    Yeah, living on government handouts because our jobs are being shipped out of the country I guess we do need reduced pricing huh? Do you see the irony in that?
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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Yeah, living on government handouts because our jobs are being shipped out of the country I guess we do need reduced pricing huh? Do you see the irony in that?
    Older industries came under increasing competitive pressure from about 1975 onward, and that would have happened irrespective of trade agreements or lack of trade agreements. Free trade gives us a chance for gains elsewhere.
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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Older industries came under increasing competitive pressure from about 1975 onward, and that would have happened irrespective of trade agreements or lack of trade agreements. Free trade gives us a chance for gains elsewhere.
    EWW! Competitive pressure! God forbid that competitive pressure happen!

    Wait! Isn't competitive pressure also good for keeping prices reduced?
    .......
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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    EWW! Competitive pressure! God forbid that competitive pressure happen!

    Wait! Isn't competitive pressure also good for keeping prices reduced?
    .......
    There's no reason for so much attitude.
    At the end of WW2 the US was the last major economy standing, and was able to afford a type of lush industrial economy that was an historical anomaly. The error is to mistake that anomaly for normal. By 1975 the rest of the world had sufficiently recovered to begin to exert competitive pressure. What has seemed like a decline from the good old days has simply been a reversion to normal.
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    Re: Senate Approves Fast-Track, Sending Trade Bill to White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    On the contrary, almost all are.
    If this is gonna be such a great deal, then why can't they just show the public what's in it? Hell, why can't they show Congress what's in it before they vote on it?
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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