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Thread: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    There is a Democrat party, there is no longer a democratic party.
    Well, actually no. But I like the term because it's an instant identifier of a blind partisan. Same signal using "Repugnant" sends to you.

    Kennedy is the one responsible for putting that together. The action of the Democrats after passing Kennedy's legislation has done nothing but destroy the black community in America.
    So you moved the goal posts to LBJs great society programs. Well, I'm waiting on the GOP to repeal Medicare and replace that with nothing. It creates dependence for the olds...
    First your statement doesn't actually counter my point. The Republicans didn't want to endanger the bill by adding sections that were in opposition to standing SCOTUS rulings regarding states rights.
    Can you point to anything to defend that, or is it just made up? And what you said was the CRA and VRA were supported by JFK, and republicans, but not the DNC, whatever that means. That's clearly wrong - those bills enjoyed across the board support outside Dixie.

    Second, we aren't talking about northerners, the subject at hand is Southern Democrats that others claimed fled the Democrat party to the Republicans after the CRA and VRA. That didn't happen, and the Southern Democrats were not conservative. Southern Democrats stayed with the Democrats because the Democrats were the progressive party and Southern Democrats were progressives.
    I've lived here and the Southern Democrats were conservative, on the right side of the Democratic party on most issues. Tennessee, like all other Southern states to my knowledge, were "right to work" states early on, almost all of them dating back to the 1940s, when democrats held the legislature and Governor's mansion.

    But, sure, working class whites were more naturally aligned with the Democrats than the big business GOP in the North.

    What you're doing is making broad statements about the parties when the reality is fairly complex. All you want to do is say, "Democrats bad, GOP good" and that's just not at all accurate. And it's offensive when right wingers attribute the racism of the southern democrats to the modern day party because if that's true, you're telling blacks they're too stupid to know this, and if they were smarter, they'd be GOPers.

    Likewise, the argument that Blacks flooded to the Democrats after the CRA and VRA is disproved by the statistics. "Non-Whites" have voted dependably Democrat for as long as Gallup has been collecting election demographics.
    It's a little tough because if you were black in the South, you probably weren't allowed to vote or hold office or serve on a jury because of Jim Crow laws, but those that did were mostly republicans. In the North, sure, lots of black democrats. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

    Fixed that for you.
    No need to fix anything - I've said it explicitly many times.

    Your response is laughable because what you accuse me of doing is exactly what Democrats have been trying to Republicans for decades. I point out that the standard Democrat narrative of White Southern Racist Democrat fight to the Republican party is a lie, and that the vast majority of White Southern Racist Democrats remained White Southern Racist Democrats and you get upset? Get real.
    I don't accuse the GOP of being racist, but it's just a fact that if you are a white racist in the South and vote for one of the two major parties, you're not voting for any democrat. The democrats broke bread with those people for a long time, and are glad to be rid of them. Now the racist dead enders are the GOP's problem.

    So the White Southern Racist Democrats remained White Southern Racist Democrats. That's my point.
    They aren't in 2015, and that is MY point. You can ignore Nixon's Southern Strategy all you want, but the shift of the white conservative vote from the Democratic to the republican party is complete as we speak.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by B'smith View Post
    I do not own or display a "Confederate" flag and have neither the desire nor intention to do so, even though I have non slave owning ancestors who fought for the South.

    As a blacksmith, I have made countless odd & detailed Reproduction tools, artifacts & cannon parts for Civil War re-enactors whose fastidious attention to detail is impressive as eccentric as it may seem. To each his own

    What I object to is the distorted notion that the "Civil War" aka "War between the States, aka "War of Northern Aggression" was fought primarily for "Freeing the Slaves".

    I think that History will support me in that Lincoln despised African-Americans & that Abolition was simply a Propaganda initiative to seize the Moral High Ground. It was only a matter of time before slavery would have been phased out not just because of its cruelty & injustice but because of technological & economic reasons.

    Even a cursory review of history & Colonialism establishes that an Industrialized State/Societies do not peacefully coexist beside agrarian States/Societies without making efforts to seize those resources.

    While there were a multitude of factors involved, like most all wars, the "Civil War" was fought primarily for economic reasons / natural resources.

    Except for the Civil War re-enactors I've met, the Confederate flag has, sadly, been hi-jacked ugly & racist hate groups. The "Professionally & Chronically Offended" in the "Offense Industry" will remain implacable & move on to another non-issue. Meanwhile, those who do find the "Confederate" flag a hurtful symbol will continue to praise a deified historical figure who despised them.
    I guess it is true that the war wasn't fought to "Free the slave" but it was fought to preserve slavery. It's an important distinction, and admittedly one that is often misstated, but it was about slavery. You say it was mainly economic - true because the economics of the South, the wealthy in the south at least, depended on slavery, and there were $billions in 1860 dollars "invested" in slaves. So ending slavery was predictably devastating economically to the region.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I guess it is true that the war wasn't fought to "Free the slave" but it was fought to preserve slavery. It's an important distinction, and admittedly one that is often misstated, but it was about slavery. You say it was mainly economic - true because the economics of the South, the wealthy in the south at least, depended on slavery, and there were $billions in 1860 dollars "invested" in slaves. So ending slavery was predictably devastating economically to the region.



    My point is that Emancipation and the well being of Black People was very low on the list of motives

    Lincoln only "freed the slaves" in the States which had already seceded much earlier for many other reasons than slavery.

    As far as Lincoln was concerned, the belated Emancipation served his military agenda, not humanitarian. Remember, the E.P. was 2 years into the War.

    There is a new statue in Richmond VA of a smiling Lincoln reading to a group of small, Black children with one sitting in his lap. In reality, he would use the book to beat them away from him, burned his clothes & immediately taken a bath.

    What I object to is the teaching of another historical distortion which falsely demonizes one side & fraudulently deifies another.

    The following are a few realities that should be taught along with the obvious evils of slavery.

    Years ago, I earned another University degree only this one was in History/English Education. I quit after 6 months because of the deceptions & lack of critical literacy we were instructed to instill in young students.

    I understand that the sight of the “Confederate” flag is hurtful but the well being of Black people was low on Lincoln’s list of priorities.

    For Example:
    “5 Things You May Not Know About Lincoln, Slavery and Emancipation”
    5 Things You May Not Know About Lincoln, Slavery and Emancipation

    - Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites.

    - Lincoln thought colonization could resolve the issue of slavery. 
For much of his career, Lincoln believed that colonization—or the idea that a majority of the African-American population should leave the United States and settle in Africa or Central America—was the best way to confront the problem of slavery.

    - As much as he hated the institution of slavery, Lincoln didn’t see the Civil War as a struggle to free the nation’s 4 million slaves from bondage. Emancipation, Lincoln saw, would further undermine the Confederacy while providing the Union with a new source of manpower to crush the rebellion.

    - the Emancipation Proclamation didn’t immediately free a single slave, as the only places it applied were places where the federal government had no control—the Southern states currently fighting against the Union." CONTINUED


    I think we basically agree, it's just that I feel that current misconceptions contribute to the rancor in the issue.

    Thanks

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, actually no. But I like the term because it's an instant identifier of a blind partisan. Same signal using "Repugnant" sends to you.
    I've never heard that one before. I see "Tea Bagger" a lot. I used to be more reserved in my verbiage until I witnessed the response by liberals to the Tea Party. I realized the Democrat party won't stop with their derogatory word usage so I decided I should start taking a page out of their book.

    So you moved the goal posts to LBJs great society programs. Well, I'm waiting on the GOP to repeal Medicare and replace that with nothing. It creates dependence for the olds...
    Nope. I pointed out that crediting LBJ with Kennedy's legacy is wrong. LBJ's signature policies did nothing for Civil Rights, they just grew the government.

    Can you point to anything to defend that, or is it just made up? And what you said was the CRA and VRA were supported by JFK, and republicans, but not the DNC, whatever that means. That's clearly wrong - those bills enjoyed across the board support outside Dixie.
    The Republicans were operating on the 1883 Supreme Court ruling on a similar anti-discrimination bill passed by Congress in 1875 (read here in the "Some Background"). Based on the 1883 Court ruling Goldwater and others believed the wording of the "Public Accommodation" clause wouldn't survive a SCOTUS challenge. They were wrong, since the SCOTUS reversed the earlier court that same year, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a valid concern. The Republicans didn't want the 1964 Civil Rights law dying in the Supreme Court the way of the 1875 law did.

    I've lived here and the Southern Democrats were conservative, on the right side of the Democratic party on most issues. Tennessee, like all other Southern states to my knowledge, were "right to work" states early on, almost all of them dating back to the 1940s, when democrats held the legislature and Governor's mansion.
    They weren't conservative. Southern Democrats were big government entitlement progressives. I find it funny that you find a "right to work" to be Conservative.

    But, sure, working class whites were more naturally aligned with the Democrats than the big business GOP in the North.
    And non-Whites were "naturally aligned" with the Democrats too, apparently.

    What you're doing is making broad statements about the parties when the reality is fairly complex. All you want to do is say, "Democrats bad, GOP good" and that's just not at all accurate. And it's offensive when right wingers attribute the racism of the southern democrats to the modern day party because if that's true, you're telling blacks they're too stupid to know this, and if they were smarter, they'd be GOPers.
    Holy Irony, Batman! "Non-Whites" have voted Democrat since before the CRA, are you saying that non-Whites were too stupid to know this? I am sure that the appeal of big government nanny state programs had the same appeal in the 1940s, 50s and 60s for the poor as it always had.

    Also, I couldn't care less if you are offended. I am objecting to the false and simplified narrative that Democrats have used for decades that said that racist white southerners flooded to the GOP after the CRA which statistics and all evidence shows didn't happen. I point out that the Southern Democrats didn't suddenly become Republicans, they stayed Democrats, and you get offended.

    It's a little tough because if you were black in the South, you probably weren't allowed to vote or hold office or serve on a jury because of Jim Crow laws, but those that did were mostly republicans. In the North, sure, lots of black democrats. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.
    I like your "probably".

    (pt 1)
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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    (pt 2)

    No need to fix anything - I've said it explicitly many times.
    It was an appropriate fix. You keep trying to run from the fact that the racist Southern whites in the old south were Democrats, and not conservatives.

    I don't accuse the GOP of being racist, but it's just a fact that if you are a white racist in the South and vote for one of the two major parties, you're not voting for any democrat.
    No, that isn't a fact. That is an assumption born of your bigoted evaluation of people based entirely on their skin color and where they live.

    The democrats broke bread with those people for a long time, and are glad to be rid of them. Now the racist dead enders are the GOP's problem.
    First, are you sure you mean "break bread"? And second, no, Democrats have their share of racists whether you acknowledge them or not. The whole force behind the Democrats welfare state ideology is that minorities are unable to succeed without white Democrats.

    They aren't in 2015, and that is MY point. You can ignore Nixon's Southern Strategy all you want, but the shift of the white conservative vote from the Democratic to the republican party is complete as we speak.
    The supposed "Nixon Strategy" didn't work if it even existed. The South didn't turn red until Reagan. The Democrats remained racist, but changed their approach from Eugenics to abortion, with the same progressive eugenics supporters pushing abortion in the 1960s and 1070s.. The racism of the Democrat party never stopped, it just slightly changed its verbiage.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    I've never heard that one before. I see "Tea Bagger" a lot. I used to be more reserved in my verbiage until I witnessed the response by liberals to the Tea Party. I realized the Democrat party won't stop with their derogatory word usage so I decided I should start taking a page out of their book.
    Fair enough, and you probably think those who use the term are idiots, as do I of those who insist on childishly refusing to use the term "Democratic" party. But do what you want, as I said I have no objection - nice identifier for me.

    Nope. I pointed out that crediting LBJ with Kennedy's legacy is wrong. LBJ's signature policies did nothing for Civil Rights, they just grew the government.
    LBJ pushed and signed the civil and voting rights acts. As a Southerner he could have sat on those and just allowed them to die. He didn't. I'm not sure why you're invested in robbing him of any credit for it.

    [QUOTE]
    The Republicans were operating on the 1883 Supreme Court ruling on a similar anti-discrimination bill passed by Congress in 1875 ([URL="http://www.americanbar.org
    .....[/QUOTE]

    Sorry but I don't know what the issue we're debating is.

    They weren't conservative. Southern Democrats were big government entitlement progressives. I find it funny that you find a "right to work" to be Conservative.
    It's sure as hell not "liberal" to oppose the interests of labor unions, forever a giant and influential democratic bloc of money and voters.

    And non-Whites were "naturally aligned" with the Democrats too, apparently.

    Holy Irony, Batman! "Non-Whites" have voted Democrat since before the CRA, are you saying that non-Whites were too stupid to know this? I am sure that the appeal of big government nanny state programs had the same appeal in the 1940s, 50s and 60s for the poor as it always had.
    OK, more democrats bad, GOP good. Fine.

    Also, I couldn't care less if you are offended. I am objecting to the false and simplified narrative that Democrats have used for decades that said that racist white southerners flooded to the GOP after the CRA which statistics and all evidence shows didn't happen. I point out that the Southern Democrats didn't suddenly become Republicans, they stayed Democrats, and you get offended.
    Great, the simplified notion that democrats were the REAL racists is BS and so is the simplified notion that all the racists immediately changes parties to the GOP after the CRA.

    I like your "probably".
    Well, some small number of blacks were allowed to register. I'm just trying to be accurate.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    (pt 2)
    It was an appropriate fix. You keep trying to run from the fact that the racist Southern whites in the old south were Democrats, and not conservatives.
    I've explicitly recognized Southern racist democrats a dozen times. Not running from anything.

    And in the Democratic party, white southerners were conservatives. I live here, and I am pretty familiar with what kind of democrats get elected in this area. They're not like they are in SF or NYC and sure as hell weren't like that in the 1950s. They'd find nice ideological home in the modern GOP and I'm not referring to anything at all to do with race or racism or any of that - religious, gun lovers, culturally conservative, that's always been the case. The only conflict would be business versus labor, and in 1940 the South was very poor, but that's changed and so the cultural conservatives have become supporters of big business, for lots of reasons, mostly they have money and influence.

    No, that isn't a fact. That is an assumption born of your bigoted evaluation of people based entirely on their skin color and where they live.
    Right, some racist good old boy pulled the lever for Obama... give me a break. I hear these people - "I'm sorry but I just can't vote for a nigger" referring to Obama is a direct quote from a very poor person of my acquaintance.

    First, are you sure you mean "break bread"? And second, no, Democrats have their share of racists whether you acknowledge them or not. The whole force behind the Democrats welfare state ideology is that minorities are unable to succeed without white Democrats.
    OK, we can disagree, but I'm glad Democrats don't have to pander to the anti-gay bigots or the dead ender racists anymore. It's an albatross around the GOP.

    The supposed "Nixon Strategy" didn't work if it even existed. The South didn't turn red until Reagan. The Democrats remained racist, but changed their approach from Eugenics to abortion, with the same progressive eugenics supporters pushing abortion in the 1960s and 1070s.. The racism of the Democrat party never stopped, it just slightly changed its verbiage.
    Eugenics.... Right, it's a defining part of the modern day democratic platform. Give me a break. Bad case of ODS and DDS today.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I've explicitly recognized Southern racist democrats a dozen times. Not running from anything.
    Hahah, no you didn't. You called them racist white southerners, or racist white conservatives. You are pissy because I keep calling them Democrats, remember?

    And in the Democratic party, white southerners were conservatives. I live here, and I am pretty familiar with what kind of democrats get elected in this area. They're not like they are in SF or NYC and sure as hell weren't like that in the 1950s. They'd find nice ideological home in the modern GOP and I'm not referring to anything at all to do with race or racism or any of that - religious, gun lovers, culturally conservative, that's always been the case. The only conflict would be business versus labor, and in 1940 the South was very poor, but that's changed and so the cultural conservatives have become supporters of big business, for lots of reasons, mostly they have money and influence.
    As I have already shown, Southern Democrats of the 50s and 60s were progressive big government types. Conservatism in the south took hold with Reagan, or a disillusionment with Carter, but it didn't exist before then. The reason the Souther Democrats stayed democrat was because they were progressive and Republicans weren't.

    Right, some racist good old boy pulled the lever for Obama... give me a break. I hear these people - "I'm sorry but I just can't vote for a nigger" referring to Obama is a direct quote from a very poor person of my acquaintance.
    Assumptions based on your own bigotry are not a substitute for a sound argument.

    OK, we can disagree, but I'm glad Democrats don't have to pander to the anti-gay bigots or the dead ender racists anymore. It's an albatross around the GOP.
    Remind me, what party does Louis Farrakhan vote for?


    Eugenics.... Right, it's a defining part of the modern day democratic platform. Give me a break. Bad case of ODS and DDS today.
    In the fo4rm of abortion, yes it is an integral part on the modern DNC. They are all about better physical and social genetics through selective breeding.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Fair enough, and you probably think those who use the term are idiots, as do I of those who insist on childishly refusing to use the term "Democratic" party. But do what you want, as I said I have no objection - nice identifier for me.
    I don't think they are idiots, no. I think they are crude and crass with their reference material, but I am unaware of any sexual maneuver called "The Democrat".. though I am sure it would be unpleasant.

    LBJ pushed and signed the civil and voting rights acts. As a Southerner he could have sat on those and just allowed them to die. He didn't. I'm not sure why you're invested in robbing him of any credit for it.
    Kennedy had already forged a coalition between Republicans and norther Dems, opposing it would have been political suicide.

    Sorry but I don't know what the issue we're debating is.
    You asked for citation of the concerns with the constitutional reservations of the Republicans regarding the Public Accommodation clause. Few liberals seem to realize that the Civil Rights act of 1964 wasn't the first crack at this. A similar law was passed in 1875 that was shot down by the Supreme Court. Adding the PA to the CRA was a serious risk if the SCOTUS stuck to precedent they would have shot down the bill again.

    More later
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Virginia governor orders Confederate flag removed from license plates

    The Confederate flag has no place in the government. It's like printing money with the swastika on it.

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