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Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

  • Total voters
    70
Fearandloathing said:
You never studied American history have you.

One, slavery was an indirect cause of the war. The south was fighting for states rights, not slavery. They were fighting for their way of life, hundreds of years of doing one way, then the north comes along and says no, you have to do it this way, and no we will no compensate you.

Sumpter was far from "defenseless" and the North, through Abraham Lincoln, another over rated president, was gearing up for a war whether the south wanted it or not. Like all wars, the primary ingredient was greed.

But you know, other countries have had civil wars, uprisings, even Canada had the Upper Canada Rebellion in 1837. The difference is other countries get over them.
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Damn Yankees were coming for the biscuits and gravy, forcing the south to eat clam chowder. Can't have that .....

Oh wait, what were they doing for hundreds of years? Uhhh slavery?
 
Deuce said:
It represents treason. Everyone flying it was a traitor. Literally by definition.
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Is every Californian a racist hate mongering bigot because California interred thousands of Japanese people against their will? Is every American a racist because some racist groups gather under the starts and stripes? Was every German citizen a murderous nazi scumbag?

For that matter...wasnt every British subject a 'traitor' when they rebelled against the crown to form the United States?

You are slanted by your own hatred and bigotry.
 
VanceMack said:
This is inane.

Every flag has been abused. The Confederate battle flag does not represent a racist history...it represents history.
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The huge hurdle the apologists for that particular flag have to overcome is that it was raised during the battle for civil rights, when those raising it were bitterly opposed to civil rights for their black residents, and was left raised over the Capitol for 37 years. So it just WAS raised in defense of state sponsored and enforced white supremacy. And the burden is figuring out when it quit representing the idea that it was raised in defense of (racism and white supremacy) and became a symbol of something else, something virtuous and good.

IF the people of South Carolina decide that it is time to retire the flag from the flagpole, let it be because it is their choice...not because of some projected hatred and shaming. Not every southerner is racist. Not even a majority of southerners are racist. Many take pride in their ancestry and heritage...a heritage that for MOST of them had nothing to do with slavery and racism.
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I have lived in the South my whole life and I long ago accepted our racist past.

You can say with a straight face that for most of us our heritage had nothing to do with slavery. I think it's a bit disingenuous because the entire economy was built on the back of slavery - without slavery, there is an entirely different 'south' until technology no longer made slavery necessary to sustain the economy. But it's true enough the vast majority were hard working, very poor, whites who at least didn't benefit directly from slavery.

But what you simply cannot say is our heritage had nothing to do with racism. A clear and persistent majority of whites all across the South elected and reelected openly and defiantly racist leaders who imposed what was a deliberate and continuous, century long, second class status for their fellow black residents. Their actions, rich and poor alike, over decades indicated their support for such a regime.
 
JasperL said:
The huge hurdle the apologists for that particular flag have to overcome is that it was raised during the battle for civil rights, when those raising it were bitterly opposed to civil rights for their black residents, and was left raised over the Capitol for 37 years. So it just WAS raised in defense of state sponsored and enforced white supremacy. And the burden is figuring out when it quit representing the idea that it was raised in defense of (racism and white supremacy) and became a symbol of something else, something virtuous and good.



I have lived in the South my whole life and I long ago accepted our racist past.

You can say with a straight face that for most of us our heritage had nothing to do with slavery. I think it's a bit disingenuous because the entire economy was built on the back of slavery - without slavery, there is an entirely different 'south' until technology no longer made slavery necessary to sustain the economy. But it's true enough the vast majority were hard working, very poor, whites who at least didn't benefit directly from slavery.

But what you simply cannot say is our heritage had nothing to do with racism. A clear and persistent majority of whites all across the South elected and reelected openly and defiantly racist leaders who imposed what was a deliberate and continuous, century long, second class status for their fellow black residents. Their actions, rich and poor alike, over decades indicated their support for such a regime.
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Most Southerners didnt own slaves. Slavery as an institution was dying and would have died a natural death. But nowhere am I claiming there is not racism involved or even that slavery was not involved. It is a PART of heirtage and history...not THE heritage and history. And while you are bull****ting...you may also recognize that 'slavery' was around since the formation of the country under the stars and stripes. It is just a part of our history. You can choose to be defined by it if you like.
 
VanceMack said:
Most Southerners didnt own slaves. Slavery as an institution was dying and would have died a natural death. But nowhere am I claiming there is not racism involved or even that slavery was not involved. It is a PART of heirtage and history...not THE heritage and history. And while you are bull****ting...you may also recognize that 'slavery' was around since the formation of the country under the stars and stripes. It is just a part of our history. You can choose to be defined by it if you like.
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What you said is this: "a heritage that for MOST of them had nothing to do with slavery and racism." As I said, slavery no, racism, clearly yes. That is an undeniable part of our history and heritage, imposed by and enforced by leaders elected and reelected again and again and again by a clear majority of whites. And I don't know how to separate widespread and systemic and continuous racism at least through the civil rights era in my lifetime from the "good" part of our heritage. It certainly impossible to separate the good from the bad and shameful by keeping a symbol of that racist past flying over the State Capitol.

Finally, I'm not defined by it. I've made peace with it and am thankful that for the overwhelming majority of the South, we've moved beyond that era and that mindset. And that's exactly why I would support removing a remnant and symbol of that racist era from anywhere near the State Capitol.
 
JasperL said:
What you said is this: "a heritage that for MOST of them had nothing to do with slavery and racism." As I said, slavery no, racism, clearly yes. That is an undeniable part of our history and heritage, imposed by and enforced by leaders elected and reelected again and again and again by a clear majority of whites. And I don't know how to separate widespread and systemic and continuous racism at least through the civil rights era in my lifetime from the "good" part of our heritage. It certainly impossible to separate the good from the bad and shameful by keeping a symbol of that racist past flying over the State Capitol.

Finally, I'm not defined by it. I've made peace with it and am thankful that for the overwhelming majority of the South, we've moved beyond that era and that mindset. And that's exactly why I would support removing a remnant and symbol of that racist era from anywhere near the State Capitol.
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Indeed. For MOST of them. If thats all you identify with then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
 
Hatuey said:
Quick question: If a German decided to fly the Nazi flag under the premise that their ancestors did so, and they want to honor those ancestors and what they fought for, not necessarily the whole burning Jews in gas ovens part, would anybody buy it?
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Answer: absolutely not. I can't believe it took the Charleston shooting for people to wake up and say, "Oh, hey, the confederate flag is racist as ****."
 
VanceMack said:
Indeed. For MOST of them. If thats all you identify with then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
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"Most" of white southerners elected proudly and defiantly racist leaders who legislated and enforced racist laws that imposed second class at best status on blacks. How do you figure "most" weren't supportive of those laws?

And I clearly said that's not who I identify with at all, and that the "overwhelming majority of the South" has "moved beyond that era and that mindset." You're apparently arguing against what you think a liberal might say and ignoring what I've actually typed.
 
This "issue" is the whole problem.

Keep it, move it, remove it.....what difference does it make? It's an inanimate object, and what you do with it won't change anything.

It won't make racists stop being racist. It won't re-establish the black family in the community. It won't suddenly make the overwhelming percentage of black fathers give a crap about their kids. It won't make deranged psychopaths stop killing people. It won't substantively do anything.

But it's a lot easier to take down a flag than look in the mirror and say the hard things that need to be said, and do the hard things that need to be done.
 
CriticalThought said:
Look up the history of the Swastika prior to the Nazis. If anything, I think it is a better symbol than the confederate flag.
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Oh I'm well aware that it wasn't invented by the NAZIs.

Lets see, the Navajo used it in healing rituals.

It has roots in old Norse mythology and its used by Buddhist and Hindus.

Its been around for ages and its still used today for a variety of cultural and religious reasons.
 
JasperL said:
"Most" of white southerners elected proudly and defiantly racist leaders who legislated and enforced racist laws that imposed second class at best status on blacks. How do you figure "most" weren't supportive of those laws?

And I clearly said that's not who I identify with at all, and that the "overwhelming majority of the South" has "moved beyond that era and that mindset." You're apparently arguing against what you think a liberal might say and ignoring what I've actually typed.
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I am uninterested in changing your mind. I grew up suth'n. My acquaintances were not, for the most part...racist. That yours are/were is your problem. And if they werent and you choose to still identify with racial notions...again...thats on you.
 
Hatuey said:
Quick question: If a German decided to fly the Nazi flag under the premise that their ancestors did so, and they want to honor those ancestors and what they fought for, not necessarily the whole burning Jews in gas ovens part, would anybody buy it?
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The Nazi flag was created for and used by a racist. Now...should those German citizens be shamed to fly a German flag?
 
VanceMack said:
I am uninterested in changing your mind. I grew up suth'n. My acquaintances were not, for the most part...racist. That yours are/were is your problem. And if they werent and you choose to still identify with racial notions...again...thats on you.
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I've spent all of my 51 years in the South. What part of "overwhelming majority of the South" has "moved beyond that era and that mindset" is hard to grasp?
 
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VanceMack said:
The Nazi flag was created for and used by a racist. Now...should those German citizens be shamed to fly a German flag?
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We're not talking about some unidentified "German" flag but a particular one intimately associated with Hitler, the Third Reich and the murder of millions of Jews.

Unfortunately in this case we're also not talking about some unidentified "Confederate" flag but a very particular and distinctive one that was raised on the State Capitol of SC in defense of white supremacy and Jim Crow, as well as other states with the same goal, and is now the the symbol for white racist dirtbags all over this country.
 
HowardBThiname said:
So what would you do?
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This follows on your previous claim that I am ignorant of US history, where upon you delve in current Russian history (!!) in a false analogy of the US Civil War.

What is to be done is for US state governments to remove a symbol that represents an attempt to dissolve the Union and maintain a system of slave labor. The US is usually a place that does not celebrate rebellious losers.
 
HowardBThiname said:
That's a silly thing to say. You're dumbing down the subject in your attempt to paint the South as seceding solely to protect slavery. While it is true that slave states and non-slave states had disagreements, the South did not secede based on the fact that they wanted to keep slaves.
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I'll go ahead and repost this since it seems to have slipped past without understanding...

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
 
JasperL said:
I've spent all of my 51 years in the South. What part of "overwhelming majority of the South" has "moved beyond that era and that mindset" is hard to grasp?
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Do you connect with a southern heritage?
 
Gimmesometruth said:
I'll go ahead and repost this since it seems to have slipped past without understanding...

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
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That is a damning quote, but it's more damning in what he is explicitly rejecting, so I'll post that:

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.
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Pretty stunning. Hard to read that and conclude the Confederacy was about 'states' rights' or tariffs or some other nonsense. They told us in their own words, crystal clear, what the Confederacy was all about - preserving white supremacy and slavery.
 
JasperL said:
We're not talking about some unidentified "German" flag but a particular one intimately associated with Hitler, the Third Reich and the murder of millions of Jews.

Unfortunately in this case we're also not talking about some unidentified "Confederate" flag but a very particular and distinctive one that was raised on the State Capitol of SC in defense of white supremacy and Jim Crow, as well as other states with the same goal, and is now the the symbol for white racist dirtbags all over this country.
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Sorry...but thats just hype and rhetoric. That flag was not created to promote white supremacy and "Jim Crow" (the fact that you drag Jim Crow laws into the argument says more about you and your intent than anything I can say about the history of the south).
 
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VanceMack said:
Sorry...but thats just hype and rhetoric. That flag was not created to promote white supremacy and "Jim Crow" (the fact that you drag Jim Crow laws into the argument says more about you and your intent than anything I can say about the history of the south).
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The battle flag WAS RESURRECTED by the Dixiecrats and the KKK in the late 40's-60's as a symbol of White dominance to counter civil rights actions.
 
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VanceMack said:
Do you connect with a southern heritage?
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I don't know what you mean by that.

I certainly reject the racist part of that heritage, as do all decent Southerners in 2015. But I don't pretend it didn't happen or was reserved for a few bad apples. I'd have to willfully ignore the entire history of this region to believe that. What I also acknowledge is people change and regions change and where I live is not the same place as it was in 1950 or 1960. So why keep a symbol of that era and proudly fly it on the grounds of the State Capitol?
 
VanceMack said:
Sorry...but thats just hype and rhetoric. That flag was not created to promote white supremacy and "Jim Crow" (the fact that you drag Jim Crow laws into the argument says more about you and your intent than anything I can say about the history of the south).
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I didn't say it was "created" for that purpose. What I said was it enjoyed a massive resurgence in popularity during the period of bitter battles over civil rights and Jim Crow laws, ultimately struck down by Congress and the Courts over the vehement objections of white Southerners.

And, again, that flag was first raised on the Capitol in 1961 as SC and the rest of the South was fighting to maintain Jim Crow and white supremacy, and it stayed there for 37 years before it was moved to its current location. It's part of history. If you think that history is wrong, tell me where.
 
JasperL said:
That is a damning quote, but it's more damning in what he is explicitly rejecting, so I'll post that:



Pretty stunning. Hard to read that and conclude the Confederacy was about 'states' rights' or tariffs or some other nonsense. They told us in their own words, crystal clear, what the Confederacy was all about - preserving white supremacy and slavery.
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If the Union was so fundamentally opposed to slavery why did they let it persist for nearly 80 years ?

The Stars and Stripes ( Northern Flag ) and legalised slavery co-existed allot longer than the Confederate flag and slavery did.
 
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