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Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?


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The South was fighting to destroy our country. .


I have to admit, I've never heard that one before. Victors get the privilege of writing history - so not only did the South lose the war - it lost the war on truth. In order to defend the viciousness with which the union burned and plundered the South during the Reconstruction, it was necessary to make southerners look like the bad guys.

If you feel the need to continue to propagate the lie - so be it.
 
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

So what would you do? Our society has evolved to where we all realize earlier thoughts were sometimes wrong. That was then - this is now. But, do we tear down Jefferson's statue because he held an opinion we now find to be invalid? Do we continue to ban symbols, one by one, until we have no history left?

Are we so ashamed of ourselves that we would deny our children the truth? Must we self-flagellate for eternity? Or just for a few more generations?

When do we get to the point where we can say, "Yes, that thing was wrong but those who took part in that wrong also did a lot of good things."

The situation during the Civil War can be compared to the Ukraine and the Crimea today. Would you support the Ukraine militarily invading the Crimea today, burning, killing and pillaging because the Crimea voted to withdraw from the Ukraine?

The only difference today is that Russia cast its eye upon Ukraine when the Crimeans seceded and said - touch them and you're history. The South had no such protector during the Civil War.

The Union devastated the South. Now, liberals are waging a war of annihilation on the character of the South. It's truly sad and those who take part know nothing about the people of the South.

For shame.
 
This is a cute meme that is ignoring the fact that I am directly dealing with what the Confederate govt was defending...and it is directly countering your claims....which you have apparently decided to drop.

That's a silly thing to say. You're dumbing down the subject in your attempt to paint the South as seceding solely to protect slavery. While it is true that slave states and non-slave states had disagreements, the South did not secede based on the fact that they wanted to keep slaves. They seceded based on the fact that the non-slave states had begun to deny the slave states the rights granted them by the Constitution. They were implementing trade and business roadblocks. The North did that while slavery was still legal in the South. Northerners didn't care that the South owned slaves for any reason other than it gave the South a business "edge" and the North coveted that. Slavery made a very few Southerners very wealthy, but the vast majority of Southerners lived poorly.

Now, we all know slavery was wrong - no one is challenging that. What we're challenging is the revisionist history the Left has dreamed up after all these years. School children do not learn about the occupation of the South after the war. The word, "Reconstruction," has a positive connotation, when the reality was anything but. It was during that time that the rebel flag came to mean something to the people of the South. It came to symbolize that they would survive the cruelty of the North and build again.

That's what this thread is supposed to be about. The flag. When you demonize it - based on a select interpretation of history - you invalidate history.

The fact that our nation ever reached the point of civil war is a disgrace. There should have been negotiations beforehand to transition away from slavery to wages. The North had no legal right to begin denying the South what the Constitution guaranteed it when each state joined the union.

And, again, we have Lincoln's assurance that he would be happy that no slave go free - if he could just keep the Union together.

I think you will win this one - I think SC will be forced to remove the flag. And, I think the Left will continue to demonize the South and paint all the citizens there with the same brush. It will probably make you feel good, and I congratulate you in advance on your victory. It's just too bad that for you to win - integrity must lose.
 
If you're interested in history, trace the recent history of the Confederate flag, when it saw a huge resurgence in popularity across the former Confederacy. Find out what year it was first raised on the State Capitol in SC. For some strange reason, it coincided with Southern opposition to integration and civil rights for blacks.

Were it not for that history, MAYBE the case could be made that it's all about history and southern pride and all that , but the fact is that flag became popular when states were defending Jim Crow and Federal attempts to roll back institutionalized, state sanctioned white supremacy.

I'm not going to deny that some supremacist groups have adopted the rebel flag. I know you are correct about that. But, by banning the flag now, you're just going to push it further toward the extremists. You will guarantee that every white supremacist in this nation starts flying that flag.

And that is the true tragedy - that a symbol that was never intended to mean something so vile - will now mean something vile. It's a raping of history.
 
The Union devastated the South. Now, liberals are waging a war of annihilation on the character of the South. It's truly sad and those who take part know nothing about the people of the South.

For shame.

That is such bullcrap. The "war" is on a symbol used in the 1960s across the former CSA to defend white supremacy and Jim Crow and is now a favorite symbol of a wide variety of openly racist organizations. That's not the "character" of the South, or if it is then it deserves to be annihilated.

Good gosh, I live in the South and love it here, and there is no "War" on our "character" except for against some dead ender types who want to hold on to the Good Old Days of Jim Crow, and slavery.
 
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I'm not going to deny that some supremacist groups have adopted the rebel flag. I know you are correct about that. But, by banning the flag now, you're just going to push it further toward the extremists. You will guarantee that every white supremacist in this nation starts flying that flag.

And that is the true tragedy - that a symbol that was never intended to mean something so vile - will now mean something vile. It's a raping of history.

I can't believe you're quoting history in one comment, then ignoring when THAT flag regained prominence. I didn't ask when the KKK adopted the flag but when the STATE OF S.C. did, along with Georgia and others. So it was absolutely intended to mean something so vile, as it was first flown over the State Capitol put there by the elected leaders of S.C. as a FU to those pushing for civil rights, basic human rights, for 1/3 or more of their citizens.

So it's not an unfortunate coincidence that racist organizations and the State of SC adopted the flag at the same time. They both adopted it at the same time because that flag had the same meaning to them both, a symbol of white supremacy and the continued subjugation of blacks.

Goodness, this isn't speculation - it's history. And you're whining that some people on the receiving end of that sordid history and their supporters want that symbol with a clearly racist past brought down.
 
Why doesn't she remove the flag and then they can debate/vote to put it back up?
 
So it's all the fault of those who object for not asking nicely enough?

Why is there a necessity to assign blame? When did someone taking offense to something automatically demand that their offense be appeased?


I can't point to evidence either way on how whites in NYC regarded blacks as people, but the "not slavery" exception is a sort of gigantic one. I think in 1863, if I'm black I'm Ok with whites thinking I'm inferior so long as I'm free and treated somewhat at least equally under the law, and not raped, beaten, killed, my kids sold out from under me, whatever, at my owner's discretion.

I can't point out to "whites in NYC" but I can point out to our 16th President.

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

by:

Abraham Lincoln




Sheesh, is there anything a racist, white supremacist can do that you're not going to excuse? First of all I imagine the Jim Crow laws were primarily response to a deeply held belief in white supremacy and racists' attempt to keep blacks subjugated despite their "freedom." But if that wasn't the primary motivation, and if they were in response to reconstruction in 1900, what the hell is your excuse for them being in place and vehemently defended by the southern states in 1960? Still holding a grudge and taking it out on blacks a century later?

When did explaining the situation in context become excuse making?


I don't even know how to respond to that. Yes, it would stick in the craw of white men who were up to that point quite able to beat, rape, buy, sell, etc. human beings at their whim. And I imagine that being owned by a white master stuck in the craw of black slaves.

I imagine it would. Are you familiar with a gentleman named Anthony Johnson?

But, yes, I get we can't use the lens of 2015 to judge those in 1865. But what most of us are focusing on is more recent history in my lifetime when, for example, S.C. decided to fly the Confederate flag as a protest for the Feds forcing civil rights on reluctant white racists throughout the South. Did it stick in the craw of whites (poor things) that whites in S.C. had to share restaurants with blacks? And blacks got to go to decent schools? Attend state colleges? Play sports with fellow whites?

Right, you're relativizing it. I'm trying to paint a picture for you to understand where these people are coming from in its broader sense, you're making the mistake of taking one snapshot in time and basing an entire opinion on that when there is so much more to it.
 
I can't believe you're quoting history in one comment, then ignoring when THAT flag regained prominence. I didn't ask when the KKK adopted the flag but when the STATE OF S.C. did, along with Georgia and others. So it was absolutely intended to mean something so vile, as it was first flown over the State Capitol put there by the elected leaders of S.C. as a FU to those pushing for civil rights, basic human rights, for 1/3 or more of their citizens.

So it's not an unfortunate coincidence that racist organizations and the State of SC adopted the flag at the same time. They both adopted it at the same time because that flag had the same meaning to them both, a symbol of white supremacy and the continued subjugation of blacks.

Goodness, this isn't speculation - it's history. And you're whining that some people on the receiving end of that sordid history and their supporters want that symbol with a clearly racist past brought down.

Wow - the sound of a mind slamming shut.

Like I told another poster - I'm sure you'll win this one.

To claim that SC adopted the flag for racist purposes tells me all I need to know. You're intent on repeating the propaganda, no matter what.

There are actually more than one flag of the Confederacy and none of them symbolize racism to the South in general. Only to small extremist groups.

You will believe what you will believe and no amount of history will change that.
 
Why doesn't she remove the flag and then they can debate/vote to put it back up?

Might have to do with legislation enacted by the S Carolina Congress, huh? What is so difficult in grasping the concept that a governor just can't do what they want to.

Of course.....if you had read the thread. Then you might not have had such difficulty in coming up with an answer to your own question, Right? :roll:
 
We continue to see leading GOP contenders for POTUS hide behind state's rights on the Confederate flag.

What is not being addressed by everyone is the battle between state's rights and a strong central government.
The overriding issue of our Nation since it was first formed--the tenth/civil war amendment.

What I do see is Roof succeeding in his attempt to divide America--as evidenced on this board with the nonsensical back-and-forth posting .



We continue to see the Managers from the Demos and DNP stoke up racism and Gun Control, while always looking to score political points off the deaths of others. Nothing new there with their so called High Morals. :roll:
 
No the issue is a bigger then that. You have 9 states that issues Sons of the Confederacy Vehicle plates which has Sons of Confederate Veterans logo. You also have Mississippi and Georgia which have "star and bars" features. Then you Six flags over Texas.

Mornin AC. :2wave: Well the left got all caught up into their emotionality and didn't know what to do. So now all those States are next.
 
Why is there a necessity to assign blame? When did someone taking offense to something automatically demand that their offense be appeased?

OK, so does a decent Southern person take down the flag or keep it flying high, and offending most of the blacks in that state?

I can't point out to "whites in NYC" but I can point out to our 16th President.

Right, but this same POTUS was an abolitionist, which is why BEFORE HE WAS INAUGURATED the South seceded in protest. You're trying to draw some equivalency between the person who would free slaves and those who fought a war to keep them enslaved.

When did explaining the situation in context become excuse making?

When you made excuses for Jim Crow, blaming it on the North and reconstruction without nodding to an embedded culture of white supremacy that lasted for decades after reconstruction and only ended after equal rights for black citizens was forced on them by the rest of the country.

I imagine it would. Are you familiar with a gentleman named Anthony Johnson?

So, you're pointing to outliers, the 1 in 1,000 or less, as evidence of some broader point?

Right, you're relativizing it. I'm trying to paint a picture for you to understand where these people are coming from in its broader sense, you're making the mistake of taking one snapshot in time and basing an entire opinion on that when there is so much more to it.

You're defending racism and the defense of white supremacy, from pre Civil War days through at least the 1960s. We know where they were "coming from" and that era and the romanticizing of it needs to end.

And I'm not taking one snapshot in time. What I've pointed out is a culture of racism and white supremacy that stretches unbroken from pre-colonial days through my lifetime, and that didn't end until change was forced on the south by the rest of the country. That flag was raised on a flagpole in S.C. in the 1960s in defense of that racist, white supremacist culture.
 
Might have to do with legislation enacted by the S Carolina Congress, huh? What is so difficult in grasping the concept that a governor just can't do what they want to.

Of course.....if you had read the thread. Then you might not have had such difficulty in coming up with an answer to your own question, Right? :roll:

I find it funny that you find it more important to attack me and defend big government bureaucracy. LOL

What will they do to her if she orders it removed?
 
Why doesn't she remove the flag and then they can debate/vote to put it back up?

Based on what Goshin said earlier, I believe she'd be breaking the law if she did that. Goshin I believe mentioned that a law was passed requiring a 3/4ths majority in the state senate to remove the flag from the capital.
 
It's the right of the people of South Carolina to decide how the flag is displayed on State property. Personally I don't care what they decide. I have no dog in the fight, so to speak. If the Governor wants to remove it and the people support her, it should be removed. If the people don't support her, she will be removed. That's the way democracy works. it's the tyranny of the majority.
 
As always, it depends on whether the person complaining and the person flying the flag is left-wing or right-wing. Even in Texas.

For example, a school principal in Texas was ordered to take down a Mexican flag he flew at school...and leftists pitched a fit because of that.

Mexican flag fuels immigration debate - Houston Chronicle


Well MC....the leftwad don't want flags on Government Buildings or property. In any States.....so I say lets oblige them. Passing laws that no flags but the Nation Flag can be on the premises.

This would mean no Flags on government property whatsoever. Not for Protests, not for supports of any groups or the issues they stand for.

This would include the lefts LGBT Flags and any other flags the left likes to walk around with.

Lets watch and see them cry and whine about that issue now.
 
Quick question: If a German decided to fly the Nazi flag under the premise that their ancestors did so, and they want to honor those ancestors and what they fought for, not necessarily the whole burning Jews in gas ovens part, would anybody buy it?

The Stars and Stripes, the Flag of the North, flew for over 80 years while Slavery was legal.

Allot longer than the Confederate flag flew. Also the Confederate flag was a Battle flag, not a National flag.

The National flag of the South had a different design.

And yes, the North used slaves. Really, the North never had a problem with slavery until the South wanted to secede.

Come to think of it, Dutch, English and Porteguese Ships brought slaves over to the US.
Should those flags be taken down ?

Maybe if people were more educated they wouldn't be so insulted over a flag.

They definitely wouldn't compare it to the Nazi flag, thats for sure.
 
I find it funny that you find it more important to attack me and defend big government bureaucracy. LOL

What will they do to her if she orders it removed?


How I am attacking you by pointing out a governor cant just decide to do what they want. :doh

Why is it fall back to playing victim due to you not reading the thread? :lamo

If she orders it to be taken down.....they will just ignore her. Might have to do with some law that came out of legislation, huh?
 
Wow - the sound of a mind slamming shut.

Like I told another poster - I'm sure you'll win this one.

To claim that SC adopted the flag for racist purposes tells me all I need to know. You're intent on repeating the propaganda, no matter what.

My mind is recognizing the documented history of that flag. All you're doing is ignoring it and making unsupported assertions that the flag wasn't raised for racist reasons, in the middle of the fight for civil rights, by white leaders vehemently opposed to extending civil rights to their black citizens. Of course not! It's just a coincidence that a symbol of the Confederacy was raised in the middle of those bitter civil rights disputes! The white legislators bitterly opposed to ending Jim Crow were just raising the flag to honor their past, but not their racist, white supremacist past but the good part of that past, that was entirely dependent on the economic exploitation and ownership of other people.

Sorry, but if you think there is an alternative reason why that flag was first raised on a flagpole in S.C. in the 1960s, present that alternative reason. Is it common during historical commemorations to fly historical flags on your Capitol, for DECADES?

And explain why Georgia adopted it as part of their flag in 1956, and why the Confederate flag was flown at the Dixiecrat convention.....

There are actually more than one flag of the Confederacy and none of them symbolize racism to the South in general. Only to small extremist groups.

You will believe what you will believe and no amount of history will change that.

OK, then cite me the history of the Confederate battle flag in S.C. and explain how that history supports your view. When was it raised over the Capitol, for what purpose, what was the backdrop, what else was happening in the broader society, how long did it remain atop the Capitol, etc.
 
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How I am attacking you by pointing out a governor cant just decide to do what they want. :doh

Why is it fall back to playing victim due to you not reading the thread? :lamo

If she orders it to be taken down.....they will just ignore her. Might have to do with some law that came out of legislation, huh?

Haley just called for it to be taken down on the State capital grounds, she didn't order it. I believe that in South Carolina it has to go through the legislature which at this point is in process. if the legislature says it has to go, it goes. The governor can't do that by herself. If was Obama however, he has a pen and a phone.
 
The Stars and Stripes, the Flag of the North, flew for over 80 years while Slavery was legal.

Allot longer than the Confederate flag flew. Also the Confederate flag was a Battle flag, not a National flag.

The National flag of the South had a different design.

And yes, the North used slaves. Really, the North never had a problem with slavery until the South wanted to secede.

So the South decided to secede from a North that had no problem with slavery? And then cited long lists of grievances about how the North was increasingly hostile to slavery as their reason for seceding? That's your interpretation of the historical record? LOL....

Come to think of it, Dutch, English and Porteguese Ships brought slaves over to the US.
Should those flags be taken down ?

Maybe if people were more educated they wouldn't be so insulted over a flag.

They definitely wouldn't compare it to the Nazi flag, thats for sure.

Some of us are recognizing the recent, documented history of that flag. Such as when it was first raised above the S.C. capitol, what else was happening at that time, that other states bitterly defending Jim Crow and the continued subjugation of blacks also adopted that flag in that same era, etc.
 
the flag of Hawaii has the union jack in it... is that OK to fly?.. or is that somehow different?

Cmon Thrilla you can't bring up Hawaii and BO's place of Birth.....it use to be a kingdom of its own. :lol:
 
The Stars and Stripes, the Flag of the North, flew for over 80 years while Slavery was legal.

Allot longer than the Confederate flag flew. Also the Confederate flag was a Battle flag, not a National flag.

The National flag of the South had a different design.

And yes, the North used slaves. Really, the North never had a problem with slavery until the South wanted to secede.

Come to think of it, Dutch, English and Porteguese Ships brought slaves over to the US.
Should those flags be taken down ?

Maybe if people were more educated they wouldn't be so insulted over a flag.

They definitely wouldn't compare it to the Nazi flag, thats for sure.



That's alright Fenton. :2wave: We just wont have any flags on government property. Lets make it fair and equal for everybody. Not even for protest or support.

Like I mentioned, then the LGBT crowd wont feel like they are just the very special people in the country anymore.
 
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