View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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  • Moved

    5 7.14%
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    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
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    4 5.71%
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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #71
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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    actually slavery was one of 2 direct causes,the other tarrifs ,both economic reasons.the states rights issues came about as the southern states rejected tariffs and were reliant on slavery economically,and paid around 90% of all us taxes back then,through tariffs.the tariffs also crippled trade between the south and its trading partners,and severely crippled its economy.

    now add in slavery,taking that away from the southernors would have made the south then like detroit now.add in the fact none of these things harmed the north in any way but the north recieved all the benefits,while the south paid all the cost.

    and even something few people think of,the north wanted cotton prices in the south to rise,while putting tariffs on it to keep countries like britain from getting cheap cotton,so northern textile mills could corner the market on clothing,instead o the south selling cheap cotton to countries like england who were direct competitors to northern textile factories.
    Pretty much what I said.
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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    actually slavery was one of 2 direct causes,the other tarrifs ,both economic reasons.the states rights issues came about as the southern states rejected tariffs and were reliant on slavery economically,and paid around 90% of all us taxes back then,through tariffs.the tariffs also crippled trade between the south and its trading partners,and severely crippled its economy.

    now add in slavery,taking that away from the southernors would have made the south then like detroit now.add in the fact none of these things harmed the north in any way but the north recieved all the benefits,while the south paid all the cost.

    and even something few people think of,the north wanted cotton prices in the south to rise,while putting tariffs on it to keep countries like britain from getting cheap cotton,so northern textile mills could corner the market on clothing,instead o the south selling cheap cotton to countries like england who were direct competitors to northern textile factories.
    Come on, tariffs had been much higher than when the Civil War was declared. There was constant bickering, but there is no way anyone can claim tariffs were a major cause of the war. Read the declarations - they tell you the reason. Slavery.

    BTW, here's a nice seemingly balanced discussion of tariffs. Did tariffs really cause the Civil War? The Morrill Act at 150

    The Morrill Tariff

    For some years prior to the war the tariff rates actually stabilized around a relatively free trade status quo. This was due to the Walker Tariff of 1846, a lesser knownAmerican counterpart to Britain’s repeal of the Corn Laws that same year. Southern and western agricultural interests succeeded in lowering the tariff even further in 1857 with an across-the-board rate reduction, authored by Senate Finance Committee Chairman Robert M.T. Hunter of Virginia.
    But tariffs were a big issue in the immediate runup to the Civil War - not what tariff levels were but what the proposed bills might do to them if the Southern and Western states couldn't cobble together enough support to defeat the increased tariffs. It was all made moot when the South seceded and cleared the way for whatever the northern states wanted to do.

    So, yes, it was a big issue and constant source of disagreements, but was at best a DISTANT second to slavery.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-22-15 at 05:16 PM.

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Remove it, that time and that flag should have been gone a long ways back.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    and even something few people think of,the north wanted cotton prices in the south to rise,while putting tariffs on it to keep countries like britain from getting cheap cotton,so northern textile mills could corner the market on clothing,instead o the south selling cheap cotton to countries like england who were direct competitors to northern textile factories.
    Interesting you mention this -

    Yes, I remember this facet being stressed very strongly in my Grammar School U.S. History class.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Pretty much what I said.
    except you called slavery an indirect cause,as it was a direct cause,both slavery and tariffs were major issues that could have destroyed the southern economy,tariffs were already imposed and had to be scaled back to to south carolina trying to seceede before the civil war,then they tried to abolish slavery,in which the southernors took the offensive to prevent the last pillar of their economy from being destroyed.

    heck i would imagine slavery would not have caused a war if tariffs were at reasonable levels.
    “You can lead a horse to water, but it is probably crowded with all those people you taught to fish.”

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    See my pics...you are absolutely right btw.
    Which goes to show: no matter how much others try to group & define us - we're all distinct INDIVIDUALS!
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Which goes to show: no matter how much others try to group & define us - we're all distinct INDIVIDUALS!
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    In the eyes of many Native Americans the US flag is such a symbol of racism, should we take it down? Symbols will always offend some-thats not what matters, what matters is that the people of that state want it up. If the states representatives decide to take it down Im fine with that too.

    What Im not fine with is outsiders TELLING them what it means and what they need to do. I just posted several links to black southerners who wave that flag, and others who fought for it. Enough of this orwellian PC garbage-it means different things to different people and if some don't like it they can go pound sand.
    At the end of the day, no one can force SC to do a damn thing. People are expressing their opinions on the subject, which is perfectly acceptable. If the flag comes down it will be as a result of a vote by the legislature and Gov. signing it. They're of course free to ignore the views of others - their call. And we're free to provide our own views. It's how it works. Not sure what the problem is.

    You say it means different things to different people but there's a problem when the state flies a symbol that has been widely adopted by racists and has been THEIR symbol for a few decades now. Especially when SC first flew THAT flag in direct response to Federal efforts to end Jim Crow.

    What you're suggesting is we ignore or rewrite the documented history of THAT FLAG. That's "Orwellian PC garbage" - rewriting history so that this flag has never represented anything but ice tea and mint julips and Southern Pride. That's false.

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    actually slavery was one of 2 direct causes,the other tarrifs ,both economic reasons.the states rights issues came about as the southern states rejected tariffs and were reliant on slavery economically,and paid around 90% of all us taxes back then,through tariffs.the tariffs also crippled trade between the south and its trading partners,and severely crippled its economy.

    now add in slavery,taking that away from the southernors would have made the south then like detroit now.add in the fact none of these things harmed the north in any way but the north recieved all the benefits,while the south paid all the cost.

    and even something few people think of,the north wanted cotton prices in the south to rise,while putting tariffs on it to keep countries like britain from getting cheap cotton,so northern textile mills could corner the market on clothing,instead o the south selling cheap cotton to countries like england who were direct competitors to northern textile factories.
    The average southerner was a poor white man who owned no slaves. While govt's certainly went to war over economic issues, I have read many journals from the people who actually fought, and why they fought.

    I get the impression (though Im not southern) that much of the pride comes from this. To this day I still hear southerners proudly mention individual family members that fought in the war.

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Which goes to show: no matter how much others try to group & define us - we're all distinct INDIVIDUALS!
    Absolutely correct. Too much time is spent looking at the macro analysis, and too little on what it means to the individual.

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