View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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  • Moved

    5 7.14%
  • Removed

    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
  • Not sure

    4 5.71%
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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #371
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    anybody get the feeling the liberal whining on this issue is only the beginning. next they will go after Thomas Jefferson's statue in the capital. wait and see. it's these meaningless issues that change NOTHING that so consume these people's minds. fascinating actually
    Well, good point, we could be debating Benghazi!

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Fascinating isn't really the word I would use.

    Pathetic describes them better.
    LOL. What's more pathetic - us liberals debating a meaningless topic or you guys participating in what you tell us is a meaningless topic. Tough call....

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
    http://soulinblackandwhite.blogspot.com/

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Yeah, that was persuasive until someone put that quote into its proper context.
    The proper context is that Lincoln didn't care one whit about the slaves - he just wanted to keep the union together.

    And the problem with you pointing out Lincoln's quote is ultimately his highest Constitutional duty was to preserve the Union - that's the first priority, especially given the unfortunate fact that slavery was blessed by the Constitution at that time. So what you're pointing to is an abolitionist saying that no matter his personal views, his duty is to preserve the union at all costs. So you're trying to turn Lincoln's principled stand to do his duty despite his own hope that all men should be free everywhere into the moral equivalent of white supremacists fighting to keep blacks enslaved for perpetuity.
    Lincoln thought slavery should not exist, but he did not view blacks as equal to whites. If he could have kept the union together and not freed one slave - he would have been a happy camper.



    Can't express it any better than they did at that time, in their own words. How else to interpret "the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."

    And as they must do, they interpreted (corrupted) their religion so they could square a cruel system of slavery and oppression with the message of the New Testament.



    LOL. I'm quoting men from that era making my case for me. All you've done is say, nuh uhhh!!
    Those quotes do not back up your assessment that if the average Southerner stayed living in the South that they must have supported racism. I pointed out to you how silly that claim is by citing the Detroit equivalent.

    People can't up and move on a whim, especially poor people. If they have a little bit of land - that's they way they make their living.

    What did you expect them to do? Leave everything they owned and become beggars in the streets in the North?

    I'm really curious to see how you defend that claim because from where I sit - it's ludicrous.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    LOL. What's more pathetic - us liberals debating a meaningless topic or you guys participating in what you tell us is a meaningless topic. Tough call....
    Maybe that's a tough call for you...since you prefer to debate a meaningless topic...but for me, telling you it's meaningless is an attempt to get you to understand just how pathetic you are being. I see that as a good thing.
    TANSTAAFL
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    My avatar created by Feliza Estrada estrada.feliza@yahoo.com

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    The proper context is that Lincoln didn't care one whit about the slaves - he just wanted to keep the union together.
    OK, which is why the South seceded before he took office, because Lincoln didn't care about slaves and would do nothing to slow or stop the spread of slavery after he was elected.... Dang, it's too bad you weren't around in that era and you could have told the South that their slave based economy was perfectly safe under Lincoln!

    Lincoln thought slavery should not exist, but he did not view blacks as equal to whites. If he could have kept the union together and not freed one slave - he would have been a happy camper.
    Here's more "history" for you. Lincoln:

    I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling. It was in the oath I took that I would, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. I could not take the office without taking the oath. Nor was it my view that I might take an oath to get power, and break the oath in using the power. I understood, too, that in ordinary civil administration this oath even forbade me to practically indulge my primary abstract judgment on the moral question of slavery. I had publicly declared this many times, and in many ways. And I aver that, to this day, I have done no official act in mere deference to my abstract judgment and feeling on slavery. I did understand however, that my oath to preserve the constitution to the best of my ability, imposed upon me the duty of preserving, by every indispensable means, that government — that nation — of which that constitution was the organic law.
    It's pretty clear - he was personally opposed to slavery, but acknowledged his oath was to preserve the Union. Your attempts to make that into a negative are laughable.

    Those quotes do not back up your assessment that if the average Southerner stayed living in the South that they must have supported racism. I pointed out to you how silly that claim is by citing the Detroit equivalent.
    It's not just the quotes, but that those leaders were elected to represent them, in every office from the highest to the lowest.

    People can't up and move on a whim, especially poor people. If they have a little bit of land - that's they way they make their living.

    What did you expect them to do? Leave everything they owned and become beggars in the streets in the North?

    I'm really curious to see how you defend that claim because from where I sit - it's ludicrous.
    I assume you mean white people can't just up and move, which is true. But they CAN vote and did vote and they consistently across every elected office from the highest to the lowest for almost a century elected white supremacists who supported Jim Crow and segregation. It's impossible to conclude the average white voter in those states opposed policies imposed at every level by leaders they ELECTED.

    It's incredible how reluctant you are to even acknowledge what is the history of this region. You're engaged in a rewrite of what happened to blacks, with the support of the vast majority of the white population (at least those with any power) for nearly a century. No wonder you don't see a problem with a flag that represented that era, as you don't see the era as particularly troubling. A few bad apples.....

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Maybe that's a tough call for you...since you prefer to debate a meaningless topic...but for me, telling you it's meaningless is an attempt to get you to understand just how pathetic you are being. I see that as a good thing.
    Here's the thing - I understand this place is an entertainment vehicle. It's not a place to change the world, but a place to engage in hopefully intelligent debate with those who have different opinions. It's not unlike debating sports or discussing trout flies or rod building or the best bicycle tires for training, which I also do online sometimes. Those are all trivial pursuits.

    So I don't actually care if the topic isn't on the top 100 or even 1,000. I happen to think the principle behind this debate is important - I've touched on it in many conversations but it has to do with our unwillingness to acknowledge the deeply racist "Southern Heritage" that for so long defined the area I love, my home. That is important, if nothing else to provide a kind of firewall against those attitudes returning. So the flag is a symbol of that and an appropriate reaction to it is to hold it up, examine what it stood for, centuries of white oppression of blacks, and reject it, relegate it to the museums.

    True, it won't solve racism. But embracing a relic of our racist past despite how it offends a large minority of blacks in this region also does nothing to soothe those wounds. It's no more than an act of common courtesy and respect to acknowledge what that flag means to some and take it down off state house grounds.

  8. #378
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    [QUOTE=JasperL;1064750895]OK, which is why the South seceded before he took office, because Lincoln didn't care about slaves and would do nothing to slow or stop the spread of slavery after he was elected.... Dang, it's too bad you weren't around in that era and you could have told the South that their slave based economy was perfectly safe under Lincoln! [quote]

    Slavery most likely would have been safe under Lincoln had they not seceded before he took office. He wasn't going to fight to end it - even though he personally opposed it.

    Lincoln didn't see blacks as equal to whites, in fact, he would have been right there with the folks who opposed Civil Rights for blacks. Here's another Lincoln quote:

    "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." ~Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln-Douglass debates, 1858.

    He didn't want to let them vote or serve on juries or marry whites and he claimed whites were superior.

    Where again is Lincoln's moral high ground again?


    It's pretty clear - he was personally opposed to slavery, but acknowledged his oath was to preserve the Union. Your attempts to make that into a negative are laughable.
    See above - what's laughable is that you insist on hanging some equality halo on the head of a President that considered blacks as inferior to whites.



    I assume you mean white people can't just up and move, which is true. But they CAN vote and did vote and they consistently across every elected office from the highest to the lowest for almost a century elected white supremacists who supported Jim Crow and segregation. It's impossible to conclude the average white voter in those states opposed policies imposed at every level by leaders they ELECTED.
    Like Lincoln, the voters likely didn't care enough about slavery to make a big deal out of it. You're forgetting the time in which these people lived. What they did care about was electing someone who would help them with their own needs. The Jim Crow segregationists had an identical ideology to that of Lincoln. See the comments from his debate again.

    It's incredible how reluctant you are to even acknowledge what is the history of this region. You're engaged in a rewrite of what happened to blacks, with the support of the vast majority of the white population (at least those with any power) for nearly a century. No wonder you don't see a problem with a flag that represented that era, as you don't see the era as particularly troubling. A few bad apples.....
    I'm not saying blacks did not suffer and that it wasn't wrong. It was wrong. I'm pointing out (again) that the flag, although some racists might have used it - long meant something else to millions more.

    Walmart's pulling all its confederate memorabilia off the shelves, other stores are doing the same. Mattel is stopping production of toys with confederate emblems.

    All that's doing is creating hatred for Southerners.

    And hatred never heals anything.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The national government should not exist in any form if it cannot protect the rights outlined in the Constitution for ALL of its citizens. And the states were simply NOT "sovereign to rule over themselves as they see fit." They were bound by that Constitution, including the laws passed by Congress and upheld by the courts. That part just wasn't then and isn't now optional.
    The level of Federal interference into State providence was never intended to be what it has gradually become. Expedience has brought things to where they are today.

    I don't know and can't see how it's relevant. The answer to systemic, state sponsored oppression isn't to ask those oppressed to move, it's to end the f'ing oppression and defend the rights of all citizens, not those with the right skin color.
    I agree, but until that happen I'm not one to sit there and take it, so I was just asking the reason for staying put. I'll admit there probably was more but I'm being too lazy to go back and see the context which spawned the question.



    OK, fair enough. I'm glad we've been able to keep this civil. No offense intended in case you read any of it that way.
    I'm actually quite pleased with the conversation and applaud your spirited yet civil participation. I intended no offense either if it was taken.

    Take Care.
    Intolerance is the privilege of Truth...

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]


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