View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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  • Moved

    5 7.14%
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    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
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    4 5.71%
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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #361
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    And it means that SC is racist, since the pols in the legislature would vote tomorrow to remove it if they knew their constituents would be A-OK w/it.

    The only reason the SC legislature would stall for a long time is if they felt their constituents might object (and potentially vote them out).
    The ultimate race card being played right here...right now...by you.

    This whole line of logic you are presenting is saying, in effect, "I don't like that flag. You should take it down. If you won't take it down, you are racists."

    And you present, as your justification, a contention that they are not voting immediately to do something that you want them to do. Never mind that they might simply be taking their time so they can find out what their actual constituents want them to do...instead of jumping to do what some person who, I presume, doesn't even LIVE in SC wants them to do.

    I suggest you go mind your own business and let the people of SC do what they want in their own time frame. And take your race card with you.
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    That might be the most errant description I've heard to date. The "entire region" was defending its homeland.
    If "homeland" (fatherland or any other jingoism) is representing the Confederacy, the entire region under discussion, its government...well there you are.

    Otherwise, you still are attempting to move the goalposts of the discussion.
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    SC could get major (but well-deserved) egg on its face.

    The fact that the SC legislature doesn't appear all too eager to schedule a quick vote to remove the confederate flag implies that voters in the pols' districts probably oppose it.

    What the rest of the country should do is pressure the SC legislature non-stop via mainstream media/social media bullying to vote on its removal.

    Then when the vote is taken, the SC legislature, pressured by their racist constituents, will oppose removal, and SC will become a national pariah overnight--all businesses will leave, tourism will be hit hard, athletes will choose not play for SC universities, . . .
    What people...from all OVER the country...from the President on down...should do is mind their own damned business...instead of pressuring others to do what you think they ought to do...and threatening them with a label of being racist.

    Have you no shame with your unabashed use of the race card?
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    If "homeland" (fatherland or any other jingoism) is representing the Confederacy, the entire region under discussion, its government...well there you are.

    Otherwise, you still are attempting to move the goalposts of the discussion.
    You're the one moving the goalposts. This thread is about whether or not the thread should be removed from the State buildings. You've launched a campaign of hatred against those who honor the flag, and I've shown you where you are wrong.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    You're the one moving the goalposts. This thread is about whether or not the thread should be removed from the State buildings. You've launched a campaign of hatred against those who honor the flag, and I've shown you where you are wrong.
    The discussion between you and I was on the history of the flag, what it represents....which is the basis for its removal. The fact that your argument has been avoiding a defense of your earlier point of what the Southern govt was fighting for by moving the goal posts of the subject is nothing more than an admission of your arguments defeat, which I accept.
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    When you quote something - you need to put quotation marks around it and you need to source the citation. Your quotation comes from a VP of the Confederacy and in that speech he said a great many other things - many about unfair trade and finances.

    You've posted that quote a number of times now - each time incorrectly. No one denies there were racists in the Confederacy - heck - until a few years before - Northerners still owned slaves. Northerners also owned indentured servants at the same time who were no more than slaves - they just had a time limit on their servitude. As pointed out by others - the US Flag flew over slavery for nearly a century.

    Your quote comes from one very wealthy man. That man was not indicative of the common Southerner.

    You might not realize it - but you're doing nothing but creating more racism by acting like an entire region was racist and owned slaves. Perhaps you want a race war - but I don't.
    I'm sorry but that is a completely whitewashed version of history. Correct, a small minority owned slaves, but the entire region bought into the idea of white supremacy and state enforced oppression of blacks, rich and poor whites, and we know that because they elected proudly and defiantly racist leaders who maintained that system for nearly a century after slavery was abolished. If the majority of whites didn't approve, they'd have voted the racist bastards out, but that didn't happen.

    And they had to buy into the idea of white supremacy to tolerate living in a region defined by slavery, its economy, social structure, etc. and predicated on the notion that whites were superior to blacks and therefore properly had complete dominion over them. As low as a white man could get, he was still superior in the eyes of the law to any black.

    That's part of the bigger problem with the whole flag thing - the apologists don't want to even admit that the area was just dominated by whites who believed, in their hearts, that blacks were inherently inferior and so lived without protest under an effectively apartheid regime post civil war, through the 1960s. So we're asked to celebrate "Southern Heritage" without even acknowledging that for blacks, that "heritage" meant slavery OR second class status imposed by force by the STATE. Which is why an unapologetic white supremacists like Johnson was selected to be #2 in the new country. It just was NOT because his views on race were out of the mainstream, it was because they represented the views of the new confederacy.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-24-15 at 01:52 PM.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm sorry but that is a completely whitewashed version of history. Correct, a small minority owned slaves, but the entire region bought into the idea of white supremacy and state enforced oppression of blacks, rich and poor whites, and we know that because they elected proudly and defiantly racist leaders who maintained that system for nearly a century after slavery was abolished. If the majority of whites didn't approve, they'd have voted the racist bastards out, but that didn't happen.
    You're forgetting the history of that era. Even Lincoln did not view blacks as equal to whites. Have you read his letter to Horace Greeley? He states that he would be happy for not even one slave to be freed if only he could keep the country together.

    The North had no moral high ground. Only the revisionist history spins it that way.

    And they had to buy into the idea of white supremacy to tolerate living in a region defined by slavery, its economy, social structure, etc. and predicated on the notion that whites were superior to blacks and therefore properly had complete dominion over them. As low as a white man could get, he was still superior in the eyes of the law to any black.
    Hogwash. I just heard a similar comment about people who judge the poor blacks in Detroit - saying they must like to live in poverty and violence or they would get out. Do you have any idea how poorly that argument is?

    That's part of the bigger problem with the whole flag thing - the apologists don't want to even admit that the area was just dominated by whites who believed, in their hearts, that blacks were inherently inferior and so lived without protest under an effectively apartheid regime post civil war, through the 1960s. So we're asked to celebrate "Southern Heritage" without even acknowledging that for blacks, that "heritage" meant slavery OR second class status imposed by force by the STATE. Which is why an unapologetic white supremacists like Johnson was selected to be #2 in the new country. It just was NOT because his views on race were out of the mainstream, it was because they represented the views of the new confederacy.
    A little reading of history might benefit you.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    You're forgetting the history of that era. Even Lincoln did not view blacks as equal to whites. Have you read his letter to Horace Greeley? He states that he would be happy for not even one slave to be freed if only he could keep the country together.
    Yeah, that was persuasive until someone put that quote into its proper context.

    And the problem with you pointing out Lincoln's quote is ultimately his highest Constitutional duty was to preserve the Union - that's the first priority, especially given the unfortunate fact that slavery was blessed by the Constitution at that time. So what you're pointing to is an abolitionist saying that no matter his personal views, his duty is to preserve the union at all costs. So you're trying to turn Lincoln's principled stand to do his duty despite his own hope that all men should be free everywhere into the moral equivalent of white supremacists fighting to keep blacks enslaved for perpetuity.

    The North had no moral high ground. Only the revisionist history spins it that way.
    So the South in 1960 under Jim Crow held the same moral ground as those fighting for equal rights for blacks? I disagree!

    Hogwash. I just heard a similar comment about people who judge the poor blacks in Detroit - saying they must like to live in poverty and violence or they would get out. Do you have any idea how poorly that argument is?
    Read the men in their own words. I posted a link to make it easy. You can read the Texas secession too. http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...ses.html#Texas

    an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
    ...
    We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

    That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.
    Can't express it any better than they did at that time, in their own words. How else to interpret "the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."

    And as they must do, they interpreted (corrupted) their religion so they could square a cruel system of slavery and oppression with the message of the New Testament.

    A little reading of history might benefit you.
    LOL. I'm quoting men from that era making my case for me. All you've done is say, nuh uhhh!!
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-24-15 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    anybody get the feeling the liberal whining on this issue is only the beginning. next they will go after Thomas Jefferson's statue in the capital. wait and see. it's these meaningless issues that change NOTHING that so consume these people's minds. fascinating actually

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    anybody get the feeling the liberal whining on this issue is only the beginning. next they will go after Thomas Jefferson's statue in the capital. wait and see. it's these meaningless issues that change NOTHING that so consume these people's minds. fascinating actually
    Fascinating isn't really the word I would use.

    Pathetic describes them better.
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