View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #321
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    None of which are cited in their actual secession documents to any meaningful degree. So anyways, are you going to answer the question or not?



    From 1933 to 1945 it definitely was. Please, stop trying to change history. Anyways, are you going to answer the question?
    Are you just not very good at that whole reading and comprehending thing?

    "I think I did answer your question. The Nazi flag is not the German flag. The Nazi flag symbolized Hitlers Nazi party. The German flag symbolizes the whole of Germany. If someone flew a Nazi flag as a means fo honoring their family that served under that flag, they would be honoring the Nazi party. Kinda tough to deny that."

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Are you just not very good at that whole reading and comprehending thing?
    All I've read from you so far is evasion.

    "I think I did answer your question. The Nazi flag is not the German flag. The Nazi flag symbolized Hitlers Nazi party. The German flag symbolizes the whole of Germany. If someone flew a Nazi flag as a means fo honoring their family that served under that flag, they would be honoring the Nazi party. Kinda tough to deny that."
    This has already been corrected so that you are able to answer the post. It was definitely the German flag from 1933 until 1945. So the question stands. Are you going to answer it or not?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Their decency is not predicated on it one way or another. The point I think your missing is that your sense of morality isn't necessarily theirs.
    I think you're insisting that there is no right or wrong on this issue and I don't agree. I think a decent people, decent elected leaders, do not intentionally offend a great share of their state with the flying of a damn relic of a bygone age.

    No, I'm demonstrating that the idea that blacks were inferior back then was damn near universal and a position held by the very man who set them free. Thus separating the issue of slavery and "white supremecy".
    But there is a gigantic difference between having some view that blacks were inferior, and allowing them their freedom versus founding a country predicated on their perpetual slavery. And what I mean by white supremacy in this context is in the eyes of the law, the state, enforced with guns and prisons for offenders.

    So you can't tell the difference between an explanation and an excuse. OK.
    You are "explaining" acts that I find morally reprehensible without any comment on whether those acts are or not. Let me put it this way, if you were black and on the receiving end of Jim Crow laws, do you care that they might have been instituted 70 years prior because of heavy handed Yankees during reconstruction? No, because you know in this reality they're morally reprehensible and ought to end, today.

    When said "outlier" was the plaintiff in a decided case that set legal precedent here in the good ole US for the allowing of servitude for life, i.e. slavery? That that individual. that that "outlier" was black? That at that point in time, that moment right there was the exact moment that Slavery became an Institution recognized by the precursor to the US government? Again, I'm separating the issue of slavery and "white supremacy". You're focusing on the outcome, I'm showing you the beginnings.
    You cannot separate racism from white supremacy. Read the people from that era, the VP of the CSA - he states the inherent inferiority of blacks as a "natural law." Or the Texas declaration. Slavery was necessarily tied directly to the inherent supremacy of the white race over blacks. It's impossible to square any other belief with the constitution or with any coherent notion of morality. How could anyone justify perpetual slavery of a fellow white man who the Constitution declares was granted inalienable rights by God? They couldn't, and so a line was drawn that declared white superiority by natural law, as ordained (literally) by God.

    No, you're trying to pigeonhole me into that position. I'm explaining that racism and slavery aren't necessarily -- as has been shown -- tied at the hip. At least not originally, but let me ask you this -- what is your definition of white supremacy?
    Sure they were, for all purposes that matter, at least in this country.

    You are I believe lest you wouldn't be brushing aside my salient points so carelessly and parroting the same old mantra "you're defending racism and white supremacy"
    Right, you're just explaining where they were coming from.

    The Federal government, the North once again imposing themselves on the sovereignty of a State, forcing on them that which they do not want, telling them how to handle themselves, just like the time of pre-secession, the reason for secession -- and you think them raising that flag was just about reassuring white people that they're the best?
    But the reason the Feds imposed themselves on the South does MATTER. Goodness, the system entrenched by law in the South in 1960!! was an absolute mockery to any idea of freedom and liberty that you can articulate. So I'm sorry but I really don't give one **** that the Feds were forcing something on the South that the white power structure did not want. Of course not, but it was immoral and a disgrace to this great country that we allowed such a system to persist for so long.

    Goodness, it's bringing up a wife beater and you "explaining" that he only beat his wife because she didn't do as he said.

    You couldn't think that the raising of the flag had anything to do with the Federal government's encroachment, once again? That the Confederate Flag was a symbol of defiance of that Federal encroachment?
    Of course, but the "encroachment" was to enforce basic civil rights for 1/3 or more of South Carolina CITIZENS, entitled to the same God given rights as their white counterparts but who were for nearly a century systematically denied them by white racists at all levels of the STATE.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    All I've read from you so far is evasion.



    This has already been corrected so that you are able to answer the post. It was definitely the German flag from 1933 until 1945. So the question stands. Are you going to answer it or not?
    I've answered the question twice.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    So it's been there for 15 years...apparently with no ill effect, nobody killed because of it, etc...but now that some nut-job kills people it's suddenly a cause for this kind of event and people like you will dredge up any reasoning...no matter how outlandish or illogical...create analogies that don't work...basically raise so much of a ruckus...that the Governor and Legislature of that State will have no choice but to remove it.

    15 years, it's been okay. A week from a tragedy, it's got to go.
    Goodness, no, the flag has been controversial for decades in S.C. and that didn't end in 2000. Just as one example, the NAACP still has a boycott on the state and has since at least 2000. And the reason the legislature in S.C. might go ahead and remove the constant source of bickering is because it's been a constant source of bickering for DECADES, and there just is no good reason to keep that relic up on state grounds.

    And you said my analogy doesn't work because it's not at the Capitol and can be avoided by those who don't want to see the flag. As you see from the picture if you visit the Capitol, you can't miss the flag.

    Furthermore, the actual point of the analogy is decent, considerate people don't intentionally offend those they care about - it's a sign of respect, common courtesy. The flag DOES offend blacks and the reason it does is rational, easily explained. So given that there are plenty of alternative flag designs, why insist on one with such baggage, if you respect the black populaton of your state? I don't know, maybe you can explain.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I've answered the question twice.
    Not really, you made up some nonsense about the flag not being the German flag and thus the action being an honoring of the Nazi Party. That has already been refuted so that you can answer the question and not evade it any further. Whenever you're ready.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Goodness, no, the flag has been controversial for decades in S.C. and that didn't end in 2000. Just as one example, the NAACP still has a boycott on the state and has since at least 2000. And the reason the legislature in S.C. might go ahead and remove the constant source of bickering is because it's been a constant source of bickering for DECADES, and there just is no good reason to keep that relic up on state grounds.

    And you said my analogy doesn't work because it's not at the Capitol and can be avoided by those who don't want to see the flag. As you see from the picture if you visit the Capitol, you can't miss the flag.

    Furthermore, the actual point of the analogy is decent, considerate people don't intentionally offend those they care about - it's a sign of respect, common courtesy. The flag DOES offend blacks and the reason it does is rational, easily explained. So given that there are plenty of alternative flag designs, why insist on one with such baggage, if you respect the black populaton of your state? I don't know, maybe you can explain.
    Two weeks ago this flag thing wasn't an issue with anyone...at least not on the national level. No politicians running for election making statements, no talking heads on TV and certainly nobody here on DP. I don't know for sure, but I don't even think citizens of SC thought this issue was important enough to stand in the heat at the Capitol and chant about it.

    No...this is nothing but political opportunism at its worst.

    What's his name...that football player is right...this is the wrong way to do this.
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Two weeks ago this flag thing wasn't an issue with anyone...at least not on the national level. No politicians running for election making statements, no talking heads on TV and certainly nobody here on DP. I don't know for sure, but I don't even think citizens of SC thought this issue was important enough to stand in the heat at the Capitol and chant about it.

    No...this is nothing but political opportunism at its worst.

    What's his name...that football player is right...this is the wrong way to do this.
    As I mentioned earlier in an post, not sure who i replied to, it was bound to happen and things like this do take time. Finally did. And you are amazed at the public / political reaction?
    Stores are also divesting themselves of any stock that has a Confederate Flag -symbol on it.
    About time.
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJames3000 View Post
    You need to revisit the chain of association... you only insisted you were a Trump-supporter after you figured out that made you a pederast as well. If I were you. I'd be more discreet about it... but I guess it's your dime.

  9. #329
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I think you're insisting that there is no right or wrong on this issue and I don't agree. I think a decent people, decent elected leaders, do not intentionally offend a great share of their state with the flying of a damn relic of a bygone age.
    I'm saying that right and wrong is based on viewpoint as it regards the flag, its symbolism. Slavery is wrong. What has been done to black people is wrong, I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that your idea of what that flag represents isn't necessarily what they think it represents. The last thing you'll hear out of someone's mouth, a reputable mouth is that the Confederate Flag stands for White Supremacy. You just won't hear it.

    I'm not even saying that what you say I disagree with, that the flag is a personal affront, that it is offensive, that it is a provocation, and even a symbol of intimidation to blacks. If I were black I'd no doubt share those sentiments.

    Me personally I find the flag to represent an ideal. I find it to represent freedom. Not some white power blacks serve us BS. No. Self determination. The self determination that those Southern states wanted back then were for a continuation of an abomination. Obviously I do not support, condone or perpetuate slavery or any State sponsored discrimination.

    Now, you can laugh, scoff even at that but it is really no different then saying Old Glory or the Declaration of Independence represents the same thing on both sides of the issue. Slavery did occur under the Stars and Stripes long before it did the Stars and Bars. All men were said by Jefferson's pen to be created equal but that didn't necessarily apply to blacks, right? But reverence is given to the latter and not the former, why? Propaganda to be succinct. The Civil war wasn't about slavery until it became politically expedient to be about slavery.

    The Corwin Amendment passed and signed by Lincoln shows us that the original intent for war wasn't for slavery's abolition but for the preservation of the Union. This is important stuff that can't be discounted simply because it is too uncomfortable to reconcile oneself with.


    But there is a gigantic difference between having some view that blacks were inferior, and allowing them their freedom versus founding a country predicated on their perpetual slavery. And what I mean by white supremacy in this context is in the eyes of the law, the state, enforced with guns and prisons for offenders.
    Exactly which is why I separated the two to begin with. Prisons for offenders of what?



    You are "explaining" acts that I find morally reprehensible without any comment on whether those acts are or not. Let me put it this way, if you were black and on the receiving end of Jim Crow laws, do you care that they might have been instituted 70 years prior because of heavy handed Yankees during reconstruction? No, because you know in this reality they're morally reprehensible and ought to end, today.
    Until this post I was presenting an objective argument. My personal predilections have no bearing as I was presenting the argument from what a Southerners point of view might look like.

    If I were black I'd be just as angry with the Yankees as I would with the Southerners to tell you the truth.



    You cannot separate racism from white supremacy. Read the people from that era, the VP of the CSA - he states the inherent inferiority of blacks as a "natural law." Or the Texas declaration. Slavery was necessarily tied directly to the inherent supremacy of the white race over blacks. It's impossible to square any other belief with the constitution or with any coherent notion of morality. How could anyone justify perpetual slavery of a fellow white man who the Constitution declares was granted inalienable rights by God? They couldn't, and so a line was drawn that declared white superiority by natural law, as ordained (literally) by God.
    I didn't separate racism and white supremacy I separated slavery and white supremacy. As did Lincoln. They did however square slavery with white people. The Irish Slave trade was huge. White slavery in this country actually predates black slavery.


    -- to be continued
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But the reason the Feds imposed themselves on the South does MATTER. Goodness, the system entrenched by law in the South in 1960!! was an absolute mockery to any idea of freedom and liberty that you can articulate. So I'm sorry but I really don't give one **** that the Feds were forcing something on the South that the white power structure did not want. Of course not, but it was immoral and a disgrace to this great country that we allowed such a system to persist for so long.
    Not to them! That is the point. It was never, is never, never gonna be ever the right of one group of people in a completely geographically different location to have the right to determine what goes on in another geographic area. That's the whole "self determination" thing. The United States was never intended to be a monolithic blob. It was a Union of sovereign states. United in defense and trade but sovereign to rule over themselves as they see fit. That was what the content of the Corwin Amendment read, that Lincoln signed. And because the abolition of slavery and Jim Crow is to be considered a good thing doesn't mean that unintended consequences which brought about severe repercussions didn't develop as a result of the way their abolition came about.

    Let me ask you, and I'm bordering on defending that which I'm not defending (the systematic oppression of blacks) but let me ask you, what was keeping blacks in the South in the 60's when all this was going on? Why not some grand migration north? There was some and that resulted in the ghettoization of blacks here in the north, not really an ideal situation either I'd say, but apparently a better one than that down South by comparison.



    Of course, but the "encroachment" was to enforce basic civil rights for 1/3 or more of South Carolina CITIZENS, entitled to the same God given rights as their white counterparts but who were for nearly a century systematically denied them by white racists at all levels of the STATE.
    I understand that, I think my position on this has been explained in the preceding entries of this post.
    Intolerance is the privilege of Truth...

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