View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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  • Moved

    5 7.14%
  • Removed

    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
  • Not sure

    4 5.71%
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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    What flag was created for the primary purpose of maintaining slavery?
    Sorry, was still editing my posts.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Sorry, was still editing my posts.
    No worries! Happens to me sometimes too.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, so does a decent Southern person take down the flag or keep it flying high, and offending most of the blacks in that state?
    Their decency is not predicated on it one way or another. The point I think your missing is that your sense of morality isn't necessarily theirs.

    Right, but this same POTUS was an abolitionist, which is why BEFORE HE WAS INAUGURATED the South seceded in protest. You're trying to draw some equivalency between the person who would free slaves and those who fought a war to keep them enslaved.
    No, I'm demonstrating that the idea that blacks were inferior back then was damn near universal and a position held by the very man who set them free. Thus separating the issue of slavery and "white supremecy".




    When you made excuses for Jim Crow, blaming it on the North and reconstruction without nodding to an embedded culture of white supremacy that lasted for decades after reconstruction and only ended after equal rights for black citizens was forced on them by the rest of the country.
    So you can't tell the difference between an explanation and an excuse. OK.


    So, you're pointing to outliers, the 1 in 1,000 or less, as evidence of some broader point?
    When said "outlier" was the plaintiff in a decided case that set legal precedent here in the good ole US for the allowing of servitude for life, i.e. slavery? That that individual. that that "outlier" was black? That at that point in time, that moment right there was the exact moment that Slavery became an Institution recognized by the precursor to the US government? Again, I'm separating the issue of slavery and "white supremacy". You're focusing on the outcome, I'm showing you the beginnings.


    You're defending racism and the defense of white supremacy, from pre Civil War days through at least the 1960s. We know where they were "coming from" and that era and the romanticizing of it needs to end.
    No, you're trying to pigeonhole me into that position. I'm explaining that racism and slavery aren't necessarily -- as has been shown -- tied at the hip. At least not originally, but let me ask you this -- what is your definition of white supremacy?

    And I'm not taking one snapshot in time. What I've pointed out is a culture of racism and white supremacy that stretches unbroken from pre-colonial days through my lifetime, and that didn't end until change was forced on the south by the rest of the country. That flag was raised on a flagpole in S.C. in the 1960s in defense of that racist, white supremacist culture.
    You are I believe lest you wouldn't be brushing aside my salient points so carelessly and parroting the same old mantra "you're defending racism and white supremacy"

    The Federal government, the North once again imposing themselves on the sovereignty of a State, forcing on them that which they do not want, telling them how to handle themselves, just like the time of pre-secession, the reason for secession -- and you think them raising that flag was just about reassuring white people that they're the best?

    You couldn't think that the raising of the flag had anything to do with the Federal government's encroachment, once again? That the Confederate Flag was a symbol of defiance of that Federal encroachment?

    Nah, it's just cut and dry, black< white with you...
    "Oh no no no, you got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. -- Sheriff Chris Mannix

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Actually, I was referring to the SC Legislature that moved that flag off their Capitol building to the memorial site where it now resides...and, I'll add, where it has resided for around 20 years.
    OK, 15 years (moved in 2000) and it wasn't moved in response to Federal pressure as you suggested, and hasn't to my knowledge ever been an issue for the Feds. The opposition came from within the state of S.C., mostly from black residents, who fully understand the history of that flag in their state.

    In any case, your analogy about the black church doesn't fit. In regards to this flag, we are talking about it existing at a location that anyone is free to visit...or not. Therefore, any ill feeling anyone might experience from seeing it can be quickly remedied by not going near it. On the other hand, anyone who DOES want to see it...for whatever reason (maybe their ancestor fought in that war and they want to pay their respects to the sacrifices the ancestor made)...are free to visit the memorial. Unlike your church analogy, nobody is getting that flag shoved in their face.
    Stand on the steps of the Capitol and the flag is hard to miss. It's a very prominent location. And there is no reason that particular flag with its history and current use as a symbol for white racists has to fly over any memorial to those who fought and died in the Civil War. There are many options to choose from and nearly all of them if not all carry a lot less recent emotional baggage.

    SC-Flag.jpg

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    what georgia did there,i saw it.
    a clever crew, no doubt...
    "Oh no no no, you got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. -- Sheriff Chris Mannix

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, 15 years (moved in 2000) and it wasn't moved in response to Federal pressure as you suggested, and hasn't to my knowledge ever been an issue for the Feds. The opposition came from within the state of S.C., mostly from black residents, who fully understand the history of that flag in their state.



    Stand on the steps of the Capitol and the flag is hard to miss. It's a very prominent location. And there is no reason that particular flag with its history and current use as a symbol for white racists has to fly over any memorial to those who fought and died in the Civil War. There are many options to choose from and nearly all of them if not all carry a lot less recent emotional baggage.

    SC-Flag.jpg
    So it's been there for 15 years...apparently with no ill effect, nobody killed because of it, etc...but now that some nut-job kills people it's suddenly a cause for this kind of event and people like you will dredge up any reasoning...no matter how outlandish or illogical...create analogies that don't work...basically raise so much of a ruckus...that the Governor and Legislature of that State will have no choice but to remove it.

    15 years, it's been okay. A week from a tragedy, it's got to go.
    TANSTAAFL

    An armed society is a polite society.
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The Confederate flag was created an used by a government whose primary reason for secession was slavery. So anyways, are you going to answer the question?
    One of many reasons was slavery...though the south maintained the ban on international slavery. There were many reasons. Many (most) of the citizens of the south were not slaveholders. They were more beholden to states rights and objected to the force and dominance of the federal government. As has been discussed before. Slavery...as an institution...was dying.

    I think I did answer your question. The Nazi flag is not the German flag. The Nazi flag symbolized Hitlers Nazi party. The German flag symbolizes the whole of Germany. If someone flew a Nazi flag as a means fo honoring their family that served under that flag, they would be honoring the Nazi party. Kinda tough to deny that. The whole of the south were not slave owners and were not committed to the act of slavery. If your belief is that every southerner at the time of the formation of the Southern states was defending slavery, you would be wrong. Just as wrong as you would be if you declared Lincoln was a racist and supported slavery when, as a form of concession, he offered to respect the sovereignty of all slave holding states and to respect their tradition of slavery.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Will Mitt Romney announce his candidacy and make Haley his VP if elected? Ironically that could be the GOP's best hope.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    I completely agree with him.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    One of many reasons was slavery.
    None of which are cited in their actual secession documents to any meaningful degree. So anyways, are you going to answer the question or not?

    The Nazi flag is not the German flag
    From 1933 to 1945 it definitely was. Please, stop trying to change history. Anyways, are you going to answer the question?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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