Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

Originally Posted by VanceMack

I dont find the link between the south and the crown all that surprising in 1776. It was the greatest concentration of british influence, there was a greater interdependence on textiles and trade...fiscal realities. Not surprising based on the facts of the day. I also dont find the race riots that occurred in the northern cities from 1900-1930 all that surprising. Its just part of history.

And I think its fine to have discussions on race and racism as historical realities. Great opportunities to learn. Sadly...some ****head will seize on the opportunity to try to capitalize today on the fact that in 1850, Asians in California were treated as slaves, not allowed to associate with non-Asians, couldnt marry, couldnt own proeprty, etc. Modern California doesnt own the actions of historical California. But you know...next thing you know people will be demanding the flag of California be changed...

I'm just a retired Chem/Physics teacher--but I enjoy all kinds of history--like the history of my subjects.

If I taught US history today and had a free hand, I'd go backwards.
With trying to put in plenty of current events discussion without getting in trouble with the admins.

My first unit would be Reagan until now--then Eisenhower to Carter--Roosevelt/Truman/WW2--1921-1933--Progressive era/WW1--
Age of Inventions/Gilded Age--Civil War/Reconstruction--1828 Tariff Act/Whigs/pre-civil war--Industrial Revolution--
Constitution/early Presidents through Monroe--American Revolution/Washington--
French-Indian War/1700s/1600s--1500s/da Vinci/explorers/printing press at least

Originally Posted by JasperL

Sure I have - that flag was raised in 1961, and it's not a coincidence that the raising of a Confederate battle flag occurred during a bitter battle over civil rights for blacks. You have to be willfully ignorant to conclude that the events are mere coincidences, and especially given the fact that the same flag was adopted by other states and by white racists opposing civil rights and fighting to maintain white supremacy. Those events are all related, part of the history of that flag.

I'm not surprised you didn't offer proof of history, had you done so - you would have revealed that the flag was put on the State House in 62 - in conjunction with the Civil War centennial. It had been in House Chambers since 1938.
History of the Confederate Flag on Statehouse Grounds - ABC News

The alternative explanation is the flag was raised to honor the Southern heritage or some such nonsense, and that might fly if the Confederate battle flag was raised to commemorate some event and then removed after a week, a month, even a year, but it stayed for DECADES, an historical artifact, flying over the State's Capitol.

Not the "alternate" explanation - the real explanation. Since it was already in the Senate and the House, and everyone seemed happy with it - they left it.

And we have to assume that the white leaders who raised that flag had the support of 'the [white] people' in those states, because they elected white leaders who defended white supremacy and Jim Crow for DECADES. You're asking me to believe that gutless politicians who have always pandered to voters were somehow acting contrary to the will of the majority of their constituents, and there is simply NO evidence that is the case.

We don't have to assume any such thing. Your imagination is running wild with you. Only a handful of people biotched about it - and that was after many years had passed.

I can acknowledge what that flag might mean to some people all day long and it won't change the fact that it was a mostly obscure flag until the civil rights battles started, and that the leaders of the movement against civil rights for their black residents raised that flag as their symbol of protest. That some might honor their dead relatives with it doesn't change that in 2015 that flag has been adopted as a symbol for white supremacists, same as it was the symbol for white supremacists occupying the highest state offices in the 1950s and 1960s.

It was only obscure to you - and to those who have no tie to the Civil War South. You seem to badly want to attribute feelings to this flag that simply did not exist until liberals started making a big deal out of it. You're CREATING the controversy - it wasn't there before. This faux outrage is a production of the Left.

OK, accepting your premise, then as this transformation of the symbol takes place, would you suggest that white, blue eyed, blonde Germans raise the flag and then ask Jewish residents to accept that when THEY raise the flag on the State Capitol, it means peace? Come one. Those Jewish residents would have known friends or family members slaughtered, millions of them in total, under that banner. No one with the slightest respect for Jews and the pain of that recent history would fly that flag and expect them to understand that it no longer means hate and a desire to wipe them off the face of the earth, but peace and love.

And remember that you'd be asking Jews to ignore that white, blue eyed blonde Germans raised that Nazi banner in 1961 while fighting to keep Jews as second class citizens BY LAW, prohibited from attending state colleges, segregated in inferior schools, unable to eat in the same restaurants as Christians, or sit in the same movie seats, Jews only allowed in the back rows of buses, and unable to vote and exercise their rights as Americans, etc. and kept that Nazi banner on the state house continually for another 37 years and only removed it under protest from the Jewish community.

Seriously, I can't believe you believe your own rhetoric. Please, put yourself in the shoes of Jews and ask yourself if you'd buy that nonsense....



What will we have lost? A symbol of a racist past? Good riddance.

I am Jewish. I know what the swastika means to Jews. It didn't have to mean that - but now it does. Now, it's truly an insult. But everytime some skinhead wears it or flies it - it feels like a direct threat. Had the Native Americans reclaimed it and had it never been banned in Germany - it would never have the power it has today. That's what you're missing.

Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth

This follows on your previous claim that I am ignorant of US history, where upon you delve in current Russian history (!!) in a false analogy of the US Civil War.

My analogy was spot on.

What is to be done is for US state governments to remove a symbol that represents an attempt to dissolve the Union and maintain a system of slave labor. The US is usually a place that does not celebrate rebellious losers.

Gimme a break. The US has become the biggest celebrator of rebellious losers around. We no longer value those who create and make jobs, instead, we degrade them and pander to those who would leech off the system.

The Left has turned into the McCarthiests of the 21 Century.

Originally Posted by JasperL

I guess you mean nearly 50 years ago, with the passage of the CRA and VRA that pretty much gutted the Jim Crow laws and voter suppression efforts common throughout the South?

But even if so I don't think it makes the observation moot at all. I've been through the history but that particular flag was raised atop the S.C. capitol in 1961 during a time when those raising it (the legislature and/or the Gov) were engaged in a bitter fight AGAINST extending civil rights to blacks. So that flag, that particular design, is intimately associated with state-sponsored efforts to continue the second class treatment of blacks in S.C., and that flag flew continuously over the capitol for 37 years.

Let me ask you this. Say you're invited to attend a black church in S.C. Given that flag's history, are you going to wear your Confederate Battle Flag belt buckle to the service? Unless you're extremely rude you won't because what you should know is most of not nearly all of that congregation will consider your belt buckle a symbol of past oppression by whites including their own government that only ended when the Feds forced its end. It doesn't even matter what it means to you - to those on the receiving end of centuries of state sponsored oppression, that particular symbol has a very definite meaning, and that meaning is enforced every day because that flag on your belt has been adopted by a slew of racist organizations in your state that say a return to white supremacy is their goal, the same goal the S.C. government fought to maintain when the Confederate flag was raised on the state house.

And if you say, well, the flag represents my southern pride, the response from a black congregant could be, "you mean the pride and nostalgia for a time when the state prevented me from voting, from eating in the same restaurants as you, etc. and fought a years long battle using that flag as a symbol to perpetuate that state of affairs?"

Actually, I was referring to the SC Legislature that moved that flag off their Capitol building to the memorial site where it now resides...and, I'll add, where it has resided for around 20 years.

In any case, your analogy about the black church doesn't fit. In regards to this flag, we are talking about it existing at a location that anyone is free to visit...or not. Therefore, any ill feeling anyone might experience from seeing it can be quickly remedied by not going near it. On the other hand, anyone who DOES want to see it...for whatever reason (maybe their ancestor fought in that war and they want to pay their respects to the sacrifices the ancestor made)...are free to visit the memorial. Unlike your church analogy, nobody is getting that flag shoved in their face.

Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth

I'll go ahead and repost this since it seems to have slipped past without understanding...

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

When you quote something - you need to put quotation marks around it and you need to source the citation. Your quotation comes from a VP of the Confederacy and in that speech he said a great many other things - many about unfair trade and finances.

You've posted that quote a number of times now - each time incorrectly. No one denies there were racists in the Confederacy - heck - until a few years before - Northerners still owned slaves. Northerners also owned indentured servants at the same time who were no more than slaves - they just had a time limit on their servitude. As pointed out by others - the US Flag flew over slavery for nearly a century.

Your quote comes from one very wealthy man. That man was not indicative of the common Southerner.

You might not realize it - but you're doing nothing but creating more racism by acting like an entire region was racist and owned slaves. Perhaps you want a race war - but I don't.

Originally Posted by VanceMack

The Nazi flag was created for and used by a racist. Now...should those German citizens be shamed to fly a German flag?

The Confederate flag was created an used by a government whose primary reason for secession was slavery. So anyways, are you going to answer the question?

Originally Posted by Fenton

The Stars and Stripes, the Flag of the North, flew for over 80 years while Slavery was legal.

Allot longer than the Confederate flag flew. Also the Confederate flag was a Battle flag, not a National flag.

The National flag of the South had a different design.

And yes, the North used slaves. Really, the North never had a problem with slavery until the South wanted to secede.

Come to think of it, Dutch, English and Porteguese Ships brought slaves over to the US.
Should those flags be taken down ?

Maybe if people were more educated they wouldn't be so insulted over a flag.

They definitely wouldn't compare it to the Nazi flag, thats for sure.

That's a silly argument. The Confederate flag was created an used by a government whose primary reason for secession/rebellion was maintaining slavery. I'm guessing you don't want to answer the question?

Originally Posted by Hatuey

That's a silly argument. The Stars and Stripes wasn't created for the primary purpose of maintaining slavery.

What flag was created for the primary purpose of maintaining slavery?