View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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  • Moved

    5 7.14%
  • Removed

    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
  • Not sure

    4 5.71%
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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #251
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Mornin HB. White Out won't work, huh?
    I don't think so. We're at the wart removal stage. It's become that bad...it's already bred, so....
    "I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance." William Faulkner

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    You never studied American history have you.

    One, slavery was an indirect cause of the war. The south was fighting for states rights, not slavery. They were fighting for their way of life, hundreds of years of doing one way, then the north comes along and says no, you have to do it this way, and no we will no compensate you.

    Sumpter was far from "defenseless" and the North, through Abraham Lincoln, another over rated president, was gearing up for a war whether the south wanted it or not. Like all wars, the primary ingredient was greed.

    But you know, other countries have had civil wars, uprisings, even Canada had the Upper Canada Rebellion in 1837. The difference is other countries get over them.
    Damn Yankees were coming for the biscuits and gravy, forcing the south to eat clam chowder. Can't have that .....

    Oh wait, what were they doing for hundreds of years? Uhhh slavery?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    It represents treason. Everyone flying it was a traitor. Literally by definition.
    Is every Californian a racist hate mongering bigot because California interred thousands of Japanese people against their will? Is every American a racist because some racist groups gather under the starts and stripes? Was every German citizen a murderous nazi scumbag?

    For that matter...wasnt every British subject a 'traitor' when they rebelled against the crown to form the United States?

    You are slanted by your own hatred and bigotry.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    This is inane.

    Every flag has been abused. The Confederate battle flag does not represent a racist history...it represents history.
    The huge hurdle the apologists for that particular flag have to overcome is that it was raised during the battle for civil rights, when those raising it were bitterly opposed to civil rights for their black residents, and was left raised over the Capitol for 37 years. So it just WAS raised in defense of state sponsored and enforced white supremacy. And the burden is figuring out when it quit representing the idea that it was raised in defense of (racism and white supremacy) and became a symbol of something else, something virtuous and good.

    IF the people of South Carolina decide that it is time to retire the flag from the flagpole, let it be because it is their choice...not because of some projected hatred and shaming. Not every southerner is racist. Not even a majority of southerners are racist. Many take pride in their ancestry and heritage...a heritage that for MOST of them had nothing to do with slavery and racism.
    I have lived in the South my whole life and I long ago accepted our racist past.

    You can say with a straight face that for most of us our heritage had nothing to do with slavery. I think it's a bit disingenuous because the entire economy was built on the back of slavery - without slavery, there is an entirely different 'south' until technology no longer made slavery necessary to sustain the economy. But it's true enough the vast majority were hard working, very poor, whites who at least didn't benefit directly from slavery.

    But what you simply cannot say is our heritage had nothing to do with racism. A clear and persistent majority of whites all across the South elected and reelected openly and defiantly racist leaders who imposed what was a deliberate and continuous, century long, second class status for their fellow black residents. Their actions, rich and poor alike, over decades indicated their support for such a regime.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The huge hurdle the apologists for that particular flag have to overcome is that it was raised during the battle for civil rights, when those raising it were bitterly opposed to civil rights for their black residents, and was left raised over the Capitol for 37 years. So it just WAS raised in defense of state sponsored and enforced white supremacy. And the burden is figuring out when it quit representing the idea that it was raised in defense of (racism and white supremacy) and became a symbol of something else, something virtuous and good.



    I have lived in the South my whole life and I long ago accepted our racist past.

    You can say with a straight face that for most of us our heritage had nothing to do with slavery. I think it's a bit disingenuous because the entire economy was built on the back of slavery - without slavery, there is an entirely different 'south' until technology no longer made slavery necessary to sustain the economy. But it's true enough the vast majority were hard working, very poor, whites who at least didn't benefit directly from slavery.

    But what you simply cannot say is our heritage had nothing to do with racism. A clear and persistent majority of whites all across the South elected and reelected openly and defiantly racist leaders who imposed what was a deliberate and continuous, century long, second class status for their fellow black residents. Their actions, rich and poor alike, over decades indicated their support for such a regime.
    Most Southerners didnt own slaves. Slavery as an institution was dying and would have died a natural death. But nowhere am I claiming there is not racism involved or even that slavery was not involved. It is a PART of heirtage and history...not THE heritage and history. And while you are bull****ting...you may also recognize that 'slavery' was around since the formation of the country under the stars and stripes. It is just a part of our history. You can choose to be defined by it if you like.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Most Southerners didnt own slaves. Slavery as an institution was dying and would have died a natural death. But nowhere am I claiming there is not racism involved or even that slavery was not involved. It is a PART of heirtage and history...not THE heritage and history. And while you are bull****ting...you may also recognize that 'slavery' was around since the formation of the country under the stars and stripes. It is just a part of our history. You can choose to be defined by it if you like.
    What you said is this: "a heritage that for MOST of them had nothing to do with slavery and racism." As I said, slavery no, racism, clearly yes. That is an undeniable part of our history and heritage, imposed by and enforced by leaders elected and reelected again and again and again by a clear majority of whites. And I don't know how to separate widespread and systemic and continuous racism at least through the civil rights era in my lifetime from the "good" part of our heritage. It certainly impossible to separate the good from the bad and shameful by keeping a symbol of that racist past flying over the State Capitol.

    Finally, I'm not defined by it. I've made peace with it and am thankful that for the overwhelming majority of the South, we've moved beyond that era and that mindset. And that's exactly why I would support removing a remnant and symbol of that racist era from anywhere near the State Capitol.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What you said is this: "a heritage that for MOST of them had nothing to do with slavery and racism." As I said, slavery no, racism, clearly yes. That is an undeniable part of our history and heritage, imposed by and enforced by leaders elected and reelected again and again and again by a clear majority of whites. And I don't know how to separate widespread and systemic and continuous racism at least through the civil rights era in my lifetime from the "good" part of our heritage. It certainly impossible to separate the good from the bad and shameful by keeping a symbol of that racist past flying over the State Capitol.

    Finally, I'm not defined by it. I've made peace with it and am thankful that for the overwhelming majority of the South, we've moved beyond that era and that mindset. And that's exactly why I would support removing a remnant and symbol of that racist era from anywhere near the State Capitol.
    Indeed. For MOST of them. If thats all you identify with then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Quick question: If a German decided to fly the Nazi flag under the premise that their ancestors did so, and they want to honor those ancestors and what they fought for, not necessarily the whole burning Jews in gas ovens part, would anybody buy it?
    Answer: absolutely not. I can't believe it took the Charleston shooting for people to wake up and say, "Oh, hey, the confederate flag is racist as ****."

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Indeed. For MOST of them. If thats all you identify with then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
    "Most" of white southerners elected proudly and defiantly racist leaders who legislated and enforced racist laws that imposed second class at best status on blacks. How do you figure "most" weren't supportive of those laws?

    And I clearly said that's not who I identify with at all, and that the "overwhelming majority of the South" has "moved beyond that era and that mindset." You're apparently arguing against what you think a liberal might say and ignoring what I've actually typed.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    This "issue" is the whole problem.

    Keep it, move it, remove it.....what difference does it make? It's an inanimate object, and what you do with it won't change anything.

    It won't make racists stop being racist. It won't re-establish the black family in the community. It won't suddenly make the overwhelming percentage of black fathers give a crap about their kids. It won't make deranged psychopaths stop killing people. It won't substantively do anything.

    But it's a lot easier to take down a flag than look in the mirror and say the hard things that need to be said, and do the hard things that need to be done.

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