View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

Voters
70. You may not vote on this poll
  • Moved

    5 7.14%
  • Removed

    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
  • Not sure

    4 5.71%
Page 18 of 41 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 402

Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #171
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    7,113

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Please explain to me how removal of the confederate flag from public property prevents private (i.e. non-governmental) expression using said flag.
    Government can't censor speech or symbolism. Removal would be censorship. 1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    I know what you are thinking.. that says Congress.. well there is this amendment called the 14th amendment which also says this.. : Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    So an Amendment as the result of winning the Civil War (14th) states States have to provide equal protection. So under the equal protection clause 1st Amendment would apply to 1st Amendment rights of flying the flag as form of free speech..

    I know it's a bitch.. but that's reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Government owned streets and military bases named after people who literally fought to preserve slavery should obviously be renamed as well.
    Which is my point, US Government can't do it. These names are there because of the 14th Amendment.

    Btw, I don't think most of them fought to preserve slavery. It's well known Robert E. Lee fought to protect Virginia. Same with Stonewall Jackson. Prior to the end of the Civil War, people (citizens) owed allegiances to their home States. I also think if compensation was offered, South would have been more willing to listen, like they did in the United Kingdom. As freeing a slave which is "property" destroys net worth. Now I want to say I do not justify slavery.

    But we still have loyalty to our "state" on both sides of the Mason Dixon line. I grew up on the Mason Dixon line, near Gettysburg and I was a child of an immigrant but to this very day I am loyal to PA, my town, Penn State, and my local sports teams. Just as the my friends in Ohio are loyal as hell to Ohio, their towns, Ohio State and their sports teams. Just as a person from South Carolina, 'Bama, Texas or so on. It's just who we are as animals. The pack mentality. We stick together.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

  2. #172
    Pragmatic Idealist
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    9,296

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Ask me if I care?
    You are a Conservative, of course you do not care about too many things that do not directly affect American. Neither of us needed to articulate the obvious.

  3. #173
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Between Athens and Jerusalem
    Last Seen
    05-18-16 @ 06:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    33,522

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    the flag of Hawaii has the union jack in it... is that OK to fly?.. or is that somehow different?
    Depends on the motivation and ethnicity of the mass shooter, and the victims.

  4. #174
    Educator SocialDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    The beautiful Pacific Northwest
    Last Seen
    05-18-16 @ 03:30 PM
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    922

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Government can't censor speech or symbolism. Removal would be censorship. 1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    I know what you are thinking.. that says Congress.. well there is this amendment called the 14th amendment which also says this.. : Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    So an Amendment as the result of winning the Civil War (14th) states States have to provide equal protection. So under the equal protection clause 1st Amendment would apply to 1st Amendment rights of flying the flag as form of free speech..

    I know it's a bitch.. but that's reality.
    That's certainly a bizarre interpretation of the 1st Amendment. If the South Carolinian government decided to stop displaying the confederate flag, every citizen would still have the right to fly the flag themselves, and thus their 1st Amendment rights are still protected.

    Which is my point, US Government can't do it. These names are there because of the 14th Amendment.

    Btw, I don't think most of them fought to preserve slavery. It's well known Robert E. Lee fought to protect Virginia. Same with Stonewall Jackson. Prior to the end of the Civil War, people (citizens) owed allegiances to their home States. I also think if compensation was offered, South would have been more willing to listen, like they did in the United Kingdom. As freeing a slave which is "property" destroys net worth. Now I want to say I do not justify slavery.

    But we still have loyalty to our "state" on both sides of the Mason Dixon line. I grew up on the Mason Dixon line, near Gettysburg and I was a child of an immigrant but to this very day I am loyal to PA, my town, Penn State, and my local sports teams. Just as the my friends in Ohio are loyal as hell to Ohio, their towns, Ohio State and their sports teams. Just as a person from South Carolina, 'Bama, Texas or so on. It's just who we are as animals. The pack mentality. We stick together.
    Monetary compensation for people who actually chose to own other people in exchange for freeing them is morally reprehensible. If anything, they deserved a loss in net worth for owning slaves in the first place.

    I couldn't care less about the personal motivations of any confederate generals. They willingly fought to preserve the slave power; whether or not they believed in what they were doing is irrelevant.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

  5. #175
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    7,113

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    That's certainly a bizarre interpretation of the 1st Amendment. If the South Carolinian government decided to stop displaying the confederate flag, every citizen would still have the right to fly the flag themselves, and thus their 1st Amendment rights are still protected.
    No State can refuse or Government in general can refuse the right of the people to fly a flag on public grounds.



    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Monetary compensation for people who actually chose to own other people in exchange for freeing them is morally reprehensible. If anything, they deserved a loss in net worth for owning slaves in the first place.
    Must be nice living in the 21st century before Karl Marx.


    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I couldn't care less about the personal motivations of any confederate generals. They willingly fought to preserve the slave power; whether or not they believed in what they were doing is irrelevant.
    They fought for their own reasons, doesn't mean they have to agree with the State reasoning. Just like today in current wars.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

  6. #176
    Professor
    HowardBThiname's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    America's Heartland
    Last Seen
    07-20-17 @ 04:02 PM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,959

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by reinoe View Post
    The South was fighting to destroy our country. .

    I have to admit, I've never heard that one before. Victors get the privilege of writing history - so not only did the South lose the war - it lost the war on truth. In order to defend the viciousness with which the union burned and plundered the South during the Reconstruction, it was necessary to make southerners look like the bad guys.

    If you feel the need to continue to propagate the lie - so be it.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  7. #177
    Professor
    HowardBThiname's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    America's Heartland
    Last Seen
    07-20-17 @ 04:02 PM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,959

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
    So what would you do? Our society has evolved to where we all realize earlier thoughts were sometimes wrong. That was then - this is now. But, do we tear down Jefferson's statue because he held an opinion we now find to be invalid? Do we continue to ban symbols, one by one, until we have no history left?

    Are we so ashamed of ourselves that we would deny our children the truth? Must we self-flagellate for eternity? Or just for a few more generations?

    When do we get to the point where we can say, "Yes, that thing was wrong but those who took part in that wrong also did a lot of good things."

    The situation during the Civil War can be compared to the Ukraine and the Crimea today. Would you support the Ukraine militarily invading the Crimea today, burning, killing and pillaging because the Crimea voted to withdraw from the Ukraine?

    The only difference today is that Russia cast its eye upon Ukraine when the Crimeans seceded and said - touch them and you're history. The South had no such protector during the Civil War.

    The Union devastated the South. Now, liberals are waging a war of annihilation on the character of the South. It's truly sad and those who take part know nothing about the people of the South.

    For shame.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  8. #178
    Professor
    HowardBThiname's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    America's Heartland
    Last Seen
    07-20-17 @ 04:02 PM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,959

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    This is a cute meme that is ignoring the fact that I am directly dealing with what the Confederate govt was defending...and it is directly countering your claims....which you have apparently decided to drop.
    That's a silly thing to say. You're dumbing down the subject in your attempt to paint the South as seceding solely to protect slavery. While it is true that slave states and non-slave states had disagreements, the South did not secede based on the fact that they wanted to keep slaves. They seceded based on the fact that the non-slave states had begun to deny the slave states the rights granted them by the Constitution. They were implementing trade and business roadblocks. The North did that while slavery was still legal in the South. Northerners didn't care that the South owned slaves for any reason other than it gave the South a business "edge" and the North coveted that. Slavery made a very few Southerners very wealthy, but the vast majority of Southerners lived poorly.

    Now, we all know slavery was wrong - no one is challenging that. What we're challenging is the revisionist history the Left has dreamed up after all these years. School children do not learn about the occupation of the South after the war. The word, "Reconstruction," has a positive connotation, when the reality was anything but. It was during that time that the rebel flag came to mean something to the people of the South. It came to symbolize that they would survive the cruelty of the North and build again.

    That's what this thread is supposed to be about. The flag. When you demonize it - based on a select interpretation of history - you invalidate history.

    The fact that our nation ever reached the point of civil war is a disgrace. There should have been negotiations beforehand to transition away from slavery to wages. The North had no legal right to begin denying the South what the Constitution guaranteed it when each state joined the union.

    And, again, we have Lincoln's assurance that he would be happy that no slave go free - if he could just keep the Union together.

    I think you will win this one - I think SC will be forced to remove the flag. And, I think the Left will continue to demonize the South and paint all the citizens there with the same brush. It will probably make you feel good, and I congratulate you in advance on your victory. It's just too bad that for you to win - integrity must lose.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  9. #179
    Professor
    HowardBThiname's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    America's Heartland
    Last Seen
    07-20-17 @ 04:02 PM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,959

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If you're interested in history, trace the recent history of the Confederate flag, when it saw a huge resurgence in popularity across the former Confederacy. Find out what year it was first raised on the State Capitol in SC. For some strange reason, it coincided with Southern opposition to integration and civil rights for blacks.

    Were it not for that history, MAYBE the case could be made that it's all about history and southern pride and all that , but the fact is that flag became popular when states were defending Jim Crow and Federal attempts to roll back institutionalized, state sanctioned white supremacy.
    I'm not going to deny that some supremacist groups have adopted the rebel flag. I know you are correct about that. But, by banning the flag now, you're just going to push it further toward the extremists. You will guarantee that every white supremacist in this nation starts flying that flag.

    And that is the true tragedy - that a symbol that was never intended to mean something so vile - will now mean something vile. It's a raping of history.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  10. #180
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    18,875

    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    The Union devastated the South. Now, liberals are waging a war of annihilation on the character of the South. It's truly sad and those who take part know nothing about the people of the South.

    For shame.
    That is such bullcrap. The "war" is on a symbol used in the 1960s across the former CSA to defend white supremacy and Jim Crow and is now a favorite symbol of a wide variety of openly racist organizations. That's not the "character" of the South, or if it is then it deserves to be annihilated.

    Good gosh, I live in the South and love it here, and there is no "War" on our "character" except for against some dead ender types who want to hold on to the Good Old Days of Jim Crow, and slavery.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-23-15 at 07:36 AM.

Page 18 of 41 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •