View Poll Results: Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

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  • Moved

    5 7.14%
  • Removed

    46 65.71%
  • Stay where it is

    15 21.43%
  • Not sure

    4 5.71%
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Thread: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

  1. #151
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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    so it should come down too?...
    Yes. But in the end it is up to the residents of the respective states. But I can certainly criticize their choice.

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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Lincoln knew it would lead to war, preparing Ft. Sumter for war...
    How does "being helpless" prepare you for war? The Fort was out of supplies. That's like saying the starving children of Somalia are trying to bait diseases into attacking their immune system.
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  3. #153
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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So you deny that he was on a drug which sometimes has a side effect of psychotic breaks and that he was on that drug due to mental health issues?
    I haven't done blood tests on him yet, if you care to share your tests, by all means...do so.



    So you don't think that we should do 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6? Why? Why are you against not giving mental patients drugs which can cause psychotic breaks? Why are you against expanding our mental health capabilities? Why are you against getting people pro-active in reporting people that they know with mental health issues? Why are you against educating the people to help them recognize those with mental health issues? And why are you against getting rid of the stigma associated with getting mental health treatment?
    I'm still intrigued by the level of diagnosis you are offering and am very interested in your qualifications to determine your suppositions.



    So you want to limit free speech and blame inanimate objects instead of actually addressing the real ****ing problem. Gotcha.
    No, you have not got a thing I have said....because I never said that, in fact today I have already said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Inanimate objects do not, but the people who use this symbol representing institutional slavery and subjugation of Blacks do use it to legitimize their view....which a US state is still flying, legitimizing it further......but then you already knew that.

    But I will agree with you if you want to argue that holding to racist ideology, to extreme conservative authoritarian views just might be an indicator of mental illness.
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    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  4. #154
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    re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I would try to explain it, but it would be pointless for me to waste my time doing so. If you are really interested you can review my posts from today where that very topic has been addressed.

    So....you are 'stangs puppet?
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    Oh, man!! You must really hate some people here if you suggest people read the drivel you've been posting all day. That's torture, dude!!
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    Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]Knock it off, both of you. Any more posts like these that do not discuss the topic will meet with an infraction. Stick to the topic.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  5. #155
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    True. The people of South Carolina have deemed their flag should look like this

    Attachment 67186054

    ...as to the matter of the Confederate Battle Flag flying over the war memorial there, that is also being handled at the state level.

    That does not remove, however, our right as people to suggest to the citizens of South Carolina, what they should do in the circumstance. The state has the ultimate to chose; but we retain the right to critique.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    Of course it matters what Lincoln was fighting for - it was his war.

    The South was fighting to keep the union troops from burning and destroying everything in sight. They failed, but that doesn't mean they did not honor their states. Less than 5% of the people ever owned slaves of benefited from the slave trade. The vast, vast majority fought to survive. The union was ruthless in battle and in the Reconstruction that followed.
    Originally Lincoln fought to keep the union together but that all changed with the signing of the emancipation proclamation two years before the war ended. The slash and burn tactics employed by Sherman and Grant was intended to finally put an end to the war ...which it did. The South probably would've surrendered sooner were it not for Southern white women slave owners appealing to the men's honor and family duty and publically shaming men who didn't enlist or support the cause for secession. Poor southern women on the other hand by 1862 were starving and resorted to rioting and looting just to get food and appealing to their men to desert and come home.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Well, they might, if they weren't feeling that they're the aggrieved party.
    So it's all the fault of those who object for not asking nicely enough?

    What you're doing here is making the mistake that that wasn't the common belief (inferiority, not slavery) held by almost ALL (including Lincoln himself) as it regards black people. You're only putting that line of thought on the Southerners.
    I can't point to evidence either way on how whites in NYC regarded blacks as people, but the "not slavery" exception is a sort of gigantic one. I think in 1863, if I'm black I'm Ok with whites thinking I'm inferior so long as I'm free and treated somewhat at least equally under the law, and not raped, beaten, killed, my kids sold out from under me, whatever, at my owner's discretion.

    This goes past the issue at hand. The issue of slavery actually was settled, or if the South hadn't seceded would have been settled with the Corwin Amendment which Lincoln signed and is still awaiting ratification. Also what people don't seem to realize was that Jim Crow laws were a response to Reconstruction and its excesses which added insult to injury.
    Sheesh, is there anything a racist, white supremacist can do that you're not going to excuse? First of all I imagine the Jim Crow laws were primarily response to a deeply held belief in white supremacy and racists' attempt to keep blacks subjugated despite their "freedom." But if that wasn't the primary motivation, and if they were in response to reconstruction in 1900, what the hell is your excuse for them being in place and vehemently defended by the southern states in 1960? Still holding a grudge and taking it out on blacks a century later?

    We look at these issues through today's eyes without seeing the other side at that time. People think its cut and dry, slavery is evil, it had always been evil. It might have been, but that doesn't mean that was the case, or the view for everyone. And when you tell someone that not only is the property you owned yesterday no longer yours but instead a fully recognized man who is gonna get a piece of your property for retribution and the Yankee gun is gonna back his play and place this uneducated individual who has decades of righteous rage in a position of local power and you can just sit there and take it or be dead, that there is gonna stick in your craw.
    I don't even know how to respond to that. Yes, it would stick in the craw of white men who were up to that point quite able to beat, rape, buy, sell, etc. human beings at their whim. And I imagine that being owned by a white master stuck in the craw of black slaves.

    But, yes, I get we can't use the lens of 2015 to judge those in 1865. But what most of us are focusing on is more recent history in my lifetime when, for example, S.C. decided to fly the Confederate flag as a protest for the Feds forcing civil rights on reluctant white racists throughout the South. Did it stick in the craw of whites (poor things) that whites in S.C. had to share restaurants with blacks? And blacks got to go to decent schools? Attend state colleges? Play sports with fellow whites?

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    This new "state shaming" tactic seems to be the new liberal move. if any state makes a religious law or flies a flag they don't like, get ready to get bad mouthed and threatened with economic collapse if the behavior isn't QUICKLY corrected.

    oh, these are such fun times
    In another setting that would be praised as markets working, which is the preferred alternative (I assume) to the Feds directing S.C. to take down the offensive flag.

    And FWIW, there has been a boycott of S.C. by at least some black organizations for years. Neither the flag controversy or attempts to use economic pressure are at all new.

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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    Just take it down and be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

    As many people have pointed out, the flag itself is not the problem. It is, however, a symptom of the problem, and that problem is societal, systemic racism.

    I may have an underlying disease that has no immediate cure, but hope for a future cure. One symptom of my disease is an itchy rash, that is there for everyone to see and be aware of my disease. There is a treatment for my itchy rash, and when I use that treatment, one of the symptoms of my disease becomes less noticeable. People around me are more comfortable.

    Will removing the flag from public facilities cure the problem if pervasive societal racism? No. But it may help with some of the symptoms, and make people more comfortable.

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