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Thread: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Mornin DS. Did Putin just throw in a monkey wrench? Any ripples from his announcement?




    Russia appears to extend aid hand to Greece.....




    Russia said Friday it would consider giving financial aid to Greece as the cash-strapped nation runs out of time to resolve its long-running debt crisis and avert an exit from the eurozone.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin's office also said Friday that Russia would consider giving loans to Greece, adding such aid should be considered par for the course for countries that are partners. Putin's office stressed Greece has not yet formally asked for any financial assistance from Moscow.

    Speaking earlier at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, Tsipras said that Russia's role in the world was expanding and that Europe was misguided to think of itself as being at the center of the world. "The world is different from what it used to be in the past," Tsipras said. "We, in Europe, have for long had an illusion that we are the hub of the universe in the literal sense; we considered ourselves to be the world center and continued to see and count exclusively on our nearest immediate entourage.".....snip~

    Russia appears to extend aid hand to Greece
    The blind leading the blind. It would be a short term solution for Greece and they are all about a short term solution. They have been dancing around this debt problem for years. It would be a bad long term solution for them. Greece, as a country, has no self discipline. Of course, they are socialist and think they deserve something just because they exist.
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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by NonoBadDog View Post
    The blind leading the blind. It would be a short term solution for Greece and they are all about a short term solution. They have been dancing around this debt problem for years. It would be a bad long term solution for them. Greece, as a country, has no self discipline. Of course, they are socialist and think they deserve something just because they exist.
    Well it was a start with Tsipras pushing the retirement age back. He was getting flak over that.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Well it was a start with Tsipras pushing the retirement age back. He was getting flak over that.
    He had to make some concessions, for heavens sake! He's getting flak because he has been promising his people for quite a while that he wouldn't go that route, but what choice did he have? The government will get their bailout, even though this put Merkel on the spot with her voters since they're weary of having to pay most of the bills! Hey, if you're dealing with a big mess, make it all-inclusive, right?

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    He had to make some concessions, for heavens sake! He's getting flak because he has been promising his people for quite a while that he wouldn't go that route, but what choice did he have? The government will get their bailout, even though this put Merkel on the spot with her voters since they're weary of having to pay most of the bills! Hey, if you're dealing with a big mess, make it all-inclusive, right?
    Greece had little leverage. The EU, ECB, and IMF understood that the costs Greece faced from default were substantially higher than those associated with austerity and structural reform. They understood that default was not rational. As a result, they were in a position to call Greece's "bluff" and they did. That doesn't mean that irrational actors in Greece's Parliament cannot still plunge Greece into default, but it does mean that the Prime Minister wouldn't deliberately do so.

    Ironically, Greece might have had more favorable terms if it moved aggressively to negotiate an agreement early on. Then, in an atmosphere of good will, the EU, ECB, and IMF could have been more accommodating in reciprocating Greek efforts to deal seriously with the issue. Unfortunately, Greece's government did not take that approach. Its negotiating posture assumed that the EU, ECB, and IMF were unaware of the real consequences should Greece default, hence they would believe Greece had leverage and capitulate to Greece's maximum demands. However, with the ECB providing emergency liquidity to Greek banks on at a quickening pace, there is no possibility whatsoever that Greece's interlocutors could not have a good understanding that default would be catastrophic for Greece. Hence, to put it in terms of some of the more radical elements in Greece's government, the "negotiation failed."

    In the end, power matters. When a party lacks leverage and its position is relatively well-understood by its interlocutors, it cannot bluff its way into terms more favorable than the actual state of its leverage. With the Greek Finance Minister having an academic background in game theory, one would have expected the Greeks to have understood the limitations of their position and pursued a course that would have led to a more favorable outcome. Instead, political ideology and emotion crowded out reasoned calculation among the Greek government's negotiating team.

    An interesting opinion piece concerning the high costs of the Greek negotiating approach can be found at: Greece's Punishing Deal - Bloomberg View

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    He had to make some concessions, for heavens sake! He's getting flak because he has been promising his people for quite a while that he wouldn't go that route, but what choice did he have? The government will get their bailout, even though this put Merkel on the spot with her voters since they're weary of having to pay most of the bills! Hey, if you're dealing with a big mess, make it all-inclusive, right?

    At least Russia isn't moving in with the assistance. That would have been a mistake should have the Greeks went that way.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From Bloomberg.com:



    Greece Offers

    This concept almost certainly includes a degree of debt forgiveness given the reference to a "definitive solution." The IMF has been open to negotiations toward that end. The big questions concern whether private and public sector creditors would both participate and the amount involved. Some private creditors, as well as Germany, might be very reluctant to agree to any debt restructuring. Ultimately, such restructuring would need to be agreed through negotiations.

    If the Greek Plan seeks an immediate agreement on forgiveness, it likely won't get very far, unless the Greeks agree to accept negotiations toward that end in place of an immediate agreement. If the plan seeks a commitment to future negotiations on debt forgiveness, that position might not be a deal-breaker.

    Other big issues to be resolved include structural reforms, including tax and pension reforms. Nothing was mentioned about that angle in the early news story.

    So, at least for now, it's premature to know whether this new proposal offers a starting point for a possible breakthrough in the deadlock. As the day goes on, more details will almost certainly be reported.
    Lol.....I bet his plan comes with a significant amount of debt forgiveness.

    Tsipras doesn't have the leverage or the credibility to dictate the terms of any agreement let alone HIS agreement.

    This is the same guy who right after being elected accused Germany of failing to pay their war reparations as a way to try and get out of paying his Country's debt.

    He wanted 300 Billion euros to call it even.

    What a blatant and public attempt at extortion and exploitation. What a low life !

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    If Russia wants to pay for Greek pensions, let them.
    Yep !!

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Greece had little leverage. The EU, ECB, and IMF understood that the costs Greece faced from default were substantially higher than those associated with austerity and structural reform. They understood that default was not rational. As a result, they were in a position to call Greece's "bluff" and they did. That doesn't mean that irrational actors in Greece's Parliament cannot still plunge Greece into default, but it does mean that the Prime Minister wouldn't deliberately do so.

    Ironically, Greece might have had more favorable terms if it moved aggressively to negotiate an agreement early on. Then, in an atmosphere of good will, the EU, ECB, and IMF could have been more accommodating in reciprocating Greek efforts to deal seriously with the issue. Unfortunately, Greece's government did not take that approach. Its negotiating posture assumed that the EU, ECB, and IMF were unaware of the real consequences should Greece default, hence they would believe Greece had leverage and capitulate to Greece's maximum demands. However, with the ECB providing emergency liquidity to Greek banks on at a quickening pace, there is no possibility whatsoever that Greece's interlocutors could not have a good understanding that default would be catastrophic for Greece. Hence, to put it in terms of some of the more radical elements in Greece's government, the "negotiation failed."

    In the end, power matters. When a party lacks leverage and its position is relatively well-understood by its interlocutors, it cannot bluff its way into terms more favorable than the actual state of its leverage. With the Greek Finance Minister having an academic background in game theory, one would have expected the Greeks to have understood the limitations of their position and pursued a course that would have led to a more favorable outcome. Instead, political ideology and emotion crowded out reasoned calculation among the Greek government's negotiating team.

    An interesting opinion piece concerning the high costs of the Greek negotiating approach can be found at: Greece's Punishing Deal - Bloomberg View
    Greetings, donsutherland1.

    Could Greece get by somehow if they left the EU? Is their economy minimally strong enough to rely on their olive oil and other exports for a while, using the drachma as their currency again?

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, donsutherland1.

    Could Greece get by somehow if they left the EU? Is their economy minimally strong enough to rely on their olive oil and other exports for a while, using the drachma as their currency again?
    Given that the ECB has provided support to Greece's banks perhaps approaching 65% of Greek GDP when one includes the most recent infusions, the period from default to a resumption of economic growth would probably be vastly more painful than what Greece has experienced to date. With Greece locked out of international credit markets and having lost its ECB lifeline, it wouldn't be surprising if its economy contracted perhaps another 10%-20% and its unemployment rate peaked above 40%. To date, the Greek economy has contracted more than 25% since 2007 and its unemployment rate stands at 27.7%. It remains uncertain whether Greece could pass through such an intensification of its economic pain without facing the risk of the collapse of its political system. My guess is that risk is part of the reason the Greek Prime Minister finally abandoned his previously intransigent stand.

    Needless to say, there are some irrational actors in Greece's government who have little or no concern for the consequences of their choices. From Bloomberg.com:

    “Personally, I cannot support such an agreement that is contrary to our election promises,” said Dimitris Kodelas, a lawmaker for the governing Syriza party who is part of a fringe faction associated with former Maoists. “I do not care about the consequences of my decision.”

    Greece Inches Closer to a Deal - Bloomberg Business

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Given that the ECB has provided support to Greece's banks perhaps approaching 65% of Greek GDP when one includes the most recent infusions, the period from default to a resumption of economic growth would probably be vastly more painful than what Greece has experienced to date. With Greece locked out of international credit markets and having lost its ECB lifeline, it wouldn't be surprising if its economy contracted perhaps another 10%-20% and its unemployment rate peaked above 40%. To date, the Greek economy has contracted more than 25% since 2007 and its unemployment rate stands at 27.7%. It remains uncertain whether Greece could pass through such an intensification of its economic pain without facing the risk of the collapse of its political system. My guess is that risk is part of the reason the Greek Prime Minister finally abandoned his previously intransigent stand.

    Needless to say, there are some irrational actors in Greece's government who have little or no concern for the consequences of their choices. From Bloomberg.com:

    “Personally, I cannot support such an agreement that is contrary to our election promises,” said Dimitris Kodelas, a lawmaker for the governing Syriza party who is part of a fringe faction associated with former Maoists. “I do not care about the consequences of my decision.”

    Greece Inches Closer to a Deal - Bloomberg Business
    That last quote says it all.

    Greece hasn't considered the consequences for over two decades and now they're paying for it

    Entering into the EU under false pretenses with the intention of defrauding creditors while distributing toxic securities out to member banks.

    It almost sounds like a act of war, like Greece did this with malice and forethought and had every intention of causing a systemic crisis.

    It doesn't help that their new PM tried to extort 300 Billion Euros by claiming Germany still owed for Nazi war crimes.

    Its like Greece is this entire Nation filled with Tony Soprano clones.

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