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Thread: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    You're described the creditors' proposal which is a later development than the Greek one. Also, it should be noted that the creditors are proposing debt relief. The Guardian reported, "The negotiators representing Greece’s lenders are also proposing to pledge debt relief for the austerity-battered country – but officials stressed that a breakthrough hinged on a positive response from the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras."

    Creditors offer Greece six-month bailout reprieve as Tsipras weighs response | World news | The Guardian
    Are we trying to discount the "creditor's proposal?" No matter what, we are stuck until Tsipras either agrees to things the EU wants or stands for what got him elected and a probable exit from the EU.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Are we trying to discount the "creditor's proposal?" No matter what, we are stuck until Tsipras either agrees to things the EU wants or stands for what got him elected and a probable exit from the EU.
    No. I just wanted to make sure that people knew that what the Greeks offered and the creditors offered are separate proposals. IMO, the creditors are offering an eminently fair and reasonable approach.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    I say give Greece to Russia.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out



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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    You're described the creditors' proposal which is a later development than the Greek one. Also, it should be noted that the creditors are proposing debt relief. The Guardian reported, "The negotiators representing Greece’s lenders are also proposing to pledge debt relief for the austerity-battered country – but officials stressed that a breakthrough hinged on a positive response from the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras."

    Creditors offer Greece six-month bailout reprieve as Tsipras weighs response | World news | The Guardian


    Here is what Summers had to say. Noting what all needed to do.



    The consequences of Greece’s impending breakdown.....


    When, as now appears likely, Greece financially separates from Europe, it will at one level be no one’s fault. The Greek leaders will rightly explain that having imposed more austerity on themselves than any industrial country has suffered since the Depression, they could not do more without light at the end of tunnel in the form of a clear commitment to debt relief. European leaders will rightly explain that they adjusted their positions repeatedly to accommodate the Greeks. They will stress that their publics would not permit Greece to play by different rules than the rest of Europe. And the International Monetary Fund will rightly explain that it would have blessed any plan agreed to by Greece and Europe that added up.

    The trouble is that all the parties will get much more of what they fear from a breakdown than they would from something they regard as an unacceptable compromise. Historians understand how World War I was allowed to start but still, a century later, are incredulous that it happened. So, too, financial historians may look back at the next week and wonder how Europe’s financial unraveling was permitted.....snip~

    The consequences of Greece

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    If Russia wants to pay for Greek pensions, let them.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Here is what Summers had to say. Noting what all needed to do.



    The consequences of Greece’s impending breakdown.....


    When, as now appears likely, Greece financially separates from Europe, it will at one level be no one’s fault. The Greek leaders will rightly explain that having imposed more austerity on themselves than any industrial country has suffered since the Depression, they could not do more without light at the end of tunnel in the form of a clear commitment to debt relief. European leaders will rightly explain that they adjusted their positions repeatedly to accommodate the Greeks. They will stress that their publics would not permit Greece to play by different rules than the rest of Europe. And the International Monetary Fund will rightly explain that it would have blessed any plan agreed to by Greece and Europe that added up.

    The trouble is that all the parties will get much more of what they fear from a breakdown than they would from something they regard as an unacceptable compromise. Historians understand how World War I was allowed to start but still, a century later, are incredulous that it happened. So, too, financial historians may look back at the next week and wonder how Europe’s financial unraveling was permitted.....snip~

    The consequences of Greece
    I don't disagree with Summers' arguments. Indeed, I think that the parties are grappling with finding a solution to avoid Greece's exist from the Euro (even if Greece remains part of the European Union). Russia, obviously, is trying to complicate matters for its own geopolitical interests. Should the Greek government adopt a pragmatic stance, I think an agreement is possible before June 30 and, if necessary, the Greek government would borrow from the Greek banks (via ECB funding) to assure there is no default to the IMF should an agreement be reached.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I don't disagree with Summers' arguments. Indeed, I think that the parties are grappling with finding a solution to avoid Greece's exist from the Euro (even if Greece remains part of the European Union). Russia, obviously, is trying to complicate matters for its own geopolitical interests. Should the Greek government adopt a pragmatic stance, I think an agreement is possible before June 30 and, if necessary, the Greek government would borrow from the Greek banks (via ECB funding) to assure there is no default to the IMF should an agreement be reached.
    Tsipras did said they would move the age of retirement back. It appears he would rather work with those in Europe.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Tsipras did said they would move the age of retirement back. It appears he would rather work with those in Europe.
    The actual details remain to be seen. There may still be gaps between the IMF/ECB/EU position and Greece's that need to be resolved. I suspect that the Greek government is beginning to gain awareness that a choice of structural reform/continued ECB support for Greece's banking system/financial support for the Greek government is more attractive than one in which Greece defaults, loses ECB support for its banking system, and experiences another dramatic and painful economic contraction. There is no pain-free solution, but the former almost certainly would entail a lot less pain and a lot less risk than the latter.

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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    The solution to the problem with Greece is similar to that of Detroit, and various other US cities in that, unlike Detroit, Greece is a sovereign nation, and cannot have some EU (overseer) come in and take total control of their reorganization. Detroit on the other hand is actually starting to do much better. If Greece would allow an EU overseer to come in and literally take control, it would relieve the political ruling class of all fiscally relevant powers, and would institute the painful measures that really need to happen. Would the political party survive? Probably not, but isn't the goal of anyone, political or otherwise, ultimately to save their nation? (Rhetorical question I know)

    Truth is, that this is what is needed. If Tsipras agreed (not likely) what it would do is instill confidence, and nations in the EU and or anywhere would find that Greece, with a new controlled reorganization plan out of the hands of the political elite would be possibly viable. It would stave off default, and total collapse, and at the same time still leave the governing part of Greece (fiscal matters notwithstanding) to the controlling party. Greeks have no way out. The time of feeding from the government teet are over. 10 year plan, lower taxes, interest rates, invite new business, raise pension retirement ages significantly, offer early retirements in the form of lump sums, albeit at much reduced payouts, and begin rebuilding. Offer new start up business a special incentive, and lower the burden and regulatory meaures on existing business.

    There's no other way out of this. Even with the OP, if it were ever come to pass, would not solve then problem, it would only push it down the road a bit. My plan actually solves the problem, not necessarily for this generation, but certainly for the next. This generation (the ones that caused the problem) will have to suck it up.


    Tim-
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    Re: Greece Offers ‘Definitive’ Plan to EU Leaders, Tsipras Says

    It increasingly appears that the Greek Prime Minister, confronted by the dangers of default, yielded. Earlier, it was reported that terms included changes in the retirement age and some modest tax hikes. That the Greek Prime Minister yielded seems to be suggested by the angry reaction from some of Greece's politicians.

    Reuters reported:

    Greek lawmakers reacted angrily on Tuesday to concessions Athens offered in debt talks and parliament's deputy speaker warned the proposals might be rejected, puncturing optimism that a deal to pull Greece back from the abyss might be sealed quickly.

    Euro zone leaders welcomed new budget proposals from Athens on Monday as a basis for further negotiations to unlock billions of euros in frozen aid and avert a default that could trigger a Greek exit from the single currency area.
    Greek offer to creditors stirs angry backlash at home | Reuters

    Should a deal be reached, the big question concerns whether pragmatic Greek political leaders will have the votes necessary to approve the agreement. The radical wing very likely will resist, even if it means default. The radical group likely places hard-core ideology ahead of structural reform, even if the consequences of their embrace of ideology would lead to severe economic and financial turmoil within Greece. For them, such a catastrophic price would perhaps be well worth it, if it meant the status quo were smashed. That the Greek people, especially lower- and middle-class sectors would bear the brunt of the suffering would matter little to the radicals.

    It is highly unlikely that Greece's people would support such an outcome. Therefore, I believe the kind of reasonable agreement that now seems within reach would be approved, though the vote might be fairly close as the radicals may comprise about a third of Greece's Parliament and they will loudly advocate a narrative that ignores or distorts the benefits of the agreement.

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