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NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

why would anyone think its wrong ?
I don't think it's wrong but certainly doesn't jive with my own beliefs. Unfortunately, after this incident I may have to revisit that original stance of mine.
 
Even though I am a gun owner and a very strong 2nd amendment advocate I do not carry at services readily. While there is a biblical passage in which Jesus himself instructs the disciples to carry a sword for self defense, his overall message was love and IMO one shouldn't feel the need to carry a weapon in church, defiling a holy place in and of itself is disgusting, but taking it to a further level of murdering the innocent and even in the name of prejudicial hatred is a level of evil on an almost indescribable scale.


people shouldn't feel the need to have armed guards or teachers in schools where innocent children are supposed to be safe and able to learn. the fact is scumbag criminals tend to target such areas for the shock effect. trying to think killers are going to share our values is not a particularly wise thing to do. in fact the "more innocent" an area is, the more tempting a target it is to assholes. active shooters don't tend to target gun clubs, biker bars (now rival bikers might), gun stores, cop bars or places where they know lots of tough customers are present.
 
people shouldn't feel the need to have armed guards or teachers in schools where innocent children are supposed to be safe and able to learn. the fact is scumbag criminals tend to target such areas for the shock effect. trying to think killers are going to share our values is not a particularly wise thing to do. in fact the "more innocent" an area is, the more tempting a target it is to assholes. active shooters don't tend to target gun clubs, biker bars (now rival bikers might), gun stores, cop bars or places where they know lots of tough customers are present.
Sadly, I came to realize that from even a young age. I never thought I would see a day where multiple attacks on places of worship would be prevalent.
 
not playing that game Gina. The killer was the cause of the deaths. Obama blaming our gun rights as a response was IMHO worse than the NRA guy blaming the pastor for creating a gun free zone. I'd be curious to know if any of those killed would have carried if the pastor had allowed it. If not, the entire argument is moot and stupid and the NRA guy would have no merit to his argument as to this massacre

There is no game. The topic Mr. Cotton. He said it.

Charleston shootings: NRA blames victims as reactions echo Newtown | US news | The Guardian
“Eight of his church members who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church are dead,” Cotton wrote. “Innocent people died because of his position on a political issue.”
 
Because a church is a holy place. Common sense would tell you not to bring a weapon in to God's house.

I'm not anti-gun in any way, but come on... really?

gee that is just plain ignorant. what about it being a holy place makes it immune to attacks. this is the second mass shooting in a church in recent memory. don't you get it that people who want to kill others are going to pick areas that cause the most shock and allow the shooter the best chance of killing lots of people? Common sense tells me that if it was "God's house" he would strike down a killer before the killer could kill. but that didn't happen either did it? I am not going to debate the wisdom of religion but pretending assholes who want to kill pay any attention to "God" or other such things is just plain STUPID
 
that is a silly response. mass shootings are extremely rare-be it churches, schools or movie theaters. Yet they happen enough for Democrats to want to ban semi auto rifles (used in less than 2% of all shootings) "high capacity" (the sign of dishonesty is using that term) magazines etc. If mass shootings are prevalent enough to call for stripping away the constitutional rights of millions then its far more reasonable for people to be armed as insurance against such shootings.

So you're using allegedly bad logic to defend your own bad logic? Aren't you a lawyer? Does that fly in court? LMFAO.

I don't attend church save for funerals or weddings these days. I don't carry all the time-I always have a firearm in my car unless its illegal and the only reason why I have a gun on me now-at home is because the house across the street was the subject of an armed robbery (a very rare occurrence) and the robber has yet to be caught and I often am 100s of yards from my house due to the size of my property.

but you would never ever know I had a gun. and if I was sitting in a pew next to you, you'd never know. So your claiming it would detract from your worship is just plain BOGUS.

First of all, I've seen guns on those who carry concealed weapons several times, so I KNOW you can't make that claim. You've got a large piece of metal or plastic shoved SOMEWHERE.... Second, if the church allows concealed carry, the congregation will assume some number of attentees will have a gun. It doesn't bother you, but it just does bother others, and for statistically ZERO increase in safety.

and that you appear to be afraid of people carrying guns is not my concern. If you are afraid to carry-DO NOT but stop judging those who do

I'm not "afraid" of people carrying guns, but I do not trust those who I don't know who are carrying guns. I've seen accidental discharges several times in my life, and I don't give a damn how safe you say you are. Unless I know you, know you are trained, know you are responsible, I'd insist in my house you take your gun off your hip and leave it in the car. There are 100 things that can go wrong, and I'm 51 and haven't one time needed a gun in my house. I'll take the risk of you not defending me against home invaders while you're here.

And if it was my church, I'd vote the same way. It's not worth ONE SECOND of worry so that you feel safe singing hymns and praying in CHURCH.

And how others feel about guns in church should be at the very top of your list of concerns. And the only judging I'd do if you decide to carry in church is conclude you're selfish, and admittedly so, because you don't care how your act affects others.
 
Even though I am a gun owner and a very strong 2nd amendment advocate I do not carry at services readily. While there is a biblical passage in which Jesus himself instructs the disciples to carry a sword for self defense, his overall message was love and IMO one shouldn't feel the need to carry a weapon in church, defiling a holy place in and of itself is disgusting, but taking it to a further level of murdering the innocent and even in the name of prejudicial hatred is a level of evil on an almost indescribable scale.

I agree with you, to me it would be defiling a holy place. I also admire that you don't carry while attending services while supporting the 2nd amendment, LMR.

I cannot find words to describe my revulsion at his act especially under those circumstances. Revulsion isn't even a visceral enough word.
 
we don't know if anyone would have carried but for the pastor do we?

Mr. Cotton has made the assumption that someone would have.

EDITED for clarity.
 
Are there any stats for that?

Its happened recently. Remember the Islamic idiots that tried to shoot up the muhammad drawing contest? How many did they kill? ZERO.

Another one...in Oklahoma....another muslim POS was beheading people at a business and one of the managers shot the guy before he could kill anyone else.

Oregon mall shooting....good guy didnt even have to fire a shot...merely his presence caused the shooter to kill himself instead of more innocent people.
 
So you're using allegedly bad logic to defend your own bad logic? Aren't you a lawyer? Does that fly in court? LMFAO.



First of all, I've seen guns on those who carry concealed weapons several times, so I KNOW you can't make that claim. You've got a large piece of metal or plastic shoved SOMEWHERE.... Second, if the church allows concealed carry, the congregation will assume some number of attentees will have a gun. It doesn't bother you, but it just does bother others, and for statistically ZERO increase in safety.



I'm not "afraid" of people carrying guns, but I do not trust those who I don't know who are carrying guns. I've seen accidental discharges several times in my life, and I don't give a damn how safe you say you are. Unless I know you, know you are trained, know you are responsible, I'd insist in my house you take your gun off your hip and leave it in the car. There are 100 things that can go wrong, and I'm 51 and haven't one time needed a gun in my house. I'll take the risk of you not defending me against home invaders while you're here.

And if it was my church, I'd vote the same way. It's not worth ONE SECOND of worry so that you feel safe singing hymns and praying in CHURCH.

And how others feel about guns in church should be at the very top of your list of concerns. And the only judging I'd do if you decide to carry in church is conclude you're selfish, and admittedly so, because you don't care how your act affects others.

I couldn't care less. I find religion to be rather silly myself. and your fear of guns in the hands of good people versus the chances of being in a gun free zone when its attacked by some turd who doesn't care if there is a no gun policy is really pretty stupid IMHO.

oh btw I am very well trained. I was trained well enough to carry handguns on planes or in federal courthouses. I also had perfect qualification scores on the USMS qualification course. on top of that I have held "Grandmaster" or Life Master qualifications in other high stress high speed shooting sports

I have not ever needed a fire extinguisher in my house and I am 56. but I have them all over the place. I have flood insurance as well even though we live on a slight hill. You saying you don't need a gun is absolutely worthless as an argument

the guy in CT whose two daughters were burned alive after he was viciously assaulted and his wife raped and then killed probably believed that too-up to a certain horrible time in his life
 
At least I am consistent in my views of people who use an event like this to push for their anti or pro gun platform. Are you consistent? I say the same about those morons on the other side of the gun debate who attempt to politicize an event such as this even before the families have a chance to bury their dead. It's disgusting and this idiot is scum.

Since you are consistent, link to your posts of outrage when Obama used this incident to further his anti-gun platform.

As you say in this post, you are consistent about such morons.

I am merely asking you to demonstrate this claim so that others may see precisely how consistent you are.

Heres Obama...just link to your outrage.

 
Emotion and hyperbole.

No it's common decency that should be applied to all victims and their families, no matter what side of the gun debate you sit on. Now you can call it whatever you like to defend an apologist for murder, I couldn't care less.
 
Mr. Cotton has made the assumption that someone would have.

EDITED for clarity.

and until we find out (we might never) then his comment is speculative at best

NOW if the family member of one of the victims said their loved one wanted to carry but Pastor whatever said no, then the NRA guy's comment might have some merit. right now, its speculative BS\

as is the case of all the gun banners who were whining about gun laws =NOTHING proposed would have stopped this shooting
 
Then how do you explain all the mass murders that weren't in gun free zones? That didn't seem to stop the bad guys either.

“.....no more than one quarter of the shootings occurred in public spaces that were so-called ‘gun-free zones.”

The Gun-Free Zone Myth: No relationship between Gun-Free Zones and Mass Shootings | Armed With Reason

Sometimes it works (lanza), sometimes it does not. There are no slam dunks here-nothing is certain.

I wish we lived in a world where these things were certain to be stopped-we dont.

So I will support what does the best to mitigate such things.

That starts with guns on scene long before the police.
 
you lose all credibility when you start calling someone who carries Paranoid and given the fact this is not the first time a church has been attacked, your argument is both silly and contrary to reality.

There is no rational reason to arm yourself in church. The odds of it keeping you safe are for all practical purposes ZERO. You took thousands of times greater risk driving to the church. If you want to keep yourself safe that day, wear your seatbelt, drive the speed limit, don't run red lights or talk/text on your cell phone while driving. That will do FAR more than arming 55 million gatherings at churches per year.

I suspect-given your other posts, that you don't support anyone but cops carrying handguns in public

We're talking about church.

I'm sure there are times and places where carrying a concealed handgun is a reasonably good idea. I've never encountered one in my life, but I live in a safe area and walk routinely late at night without worry. Not everyone is so lucky. I won't make broad statements on the subject.
 
I found more of his statement here:

Charleston shootings: NRA blames victims as reactions echo Newtown | US news | The Guardian


That makes it more than speculative.

I take issue with the one comment on its own. "Might" is not a fair comment when speaking of another person's responsibility in the deaths of others in which he did not pull the trigger himself.

There was an evil man there with a gun, killing innocents. The biggest factor in stopping these events is a good guy with a gun as soon as possible (it usually takes violence to stop violent events, and cops are minutes away when seconds count), and the pastor (ALSO a politician) opposed such measures.

Sometimes, the truth isn't pretty, this is one of those cases.
 
Might? With the least likely possibility. I think far fetched is not strong enough a term. Do you agree the that Cotton put the blame squarely on the pastor, without equivocation?

Do you think he's not holding the shooter ultimately responsible?
 
I agree with you, to me it would be defiling a holy place. I also admire that you don't carry while attending services while supporting the 2nd amendment, LMR.

I cannot find words to describe my revulsion at his act especially under those circumstances. Revulsion isn't even a visceral enough word.
I don't mind others being armed so much as it isn't something I agree with for my own behavior, I don't personally think it is right under normal circumstances. If things deteriorate God forbid I may rethink that because I also feel as a Catholic it is my duty to protect innocent life. We are most definitely in some conflicting times, that said, my heart and prayers absolutely go out to the victims and their loved ones.
 
I agree with you, to me it would be defiling a holy place. I also admire that you don't carry while attending services while supporting the 2nd amendment, LMR.

I cannot find words to describe my revulsion at his act especially under those circumstances. Revulsion isn't even a visceral enough word.

So a racist mass murderer isn't going to bring a gun because its a holy place?

Bad things happen everywhere. Most of the time you dont hear about it.
 
There was an evil man there with a gun, killing innocents. The biggest factor in stopping these events is a good guy with a gun as soon as possible (it usually takes violence to stop violent events, and cops are minutes away when seconds count), and the pastor (ALSO a politician) opposed such measures.

Sometimes, the truth isn't pretty, this is one of those cases.

No, it's only the biggest factor when all else fails.

The victims, and this kid were failed by broken education, broken families, societal apathy, profit only based pharmaceuticals, desensitization to violence, media hyperbole and sensationalism that makes mundane events into vehicles of fear to advance ideas that can't otherwise succeed.

The biggest factor is that we are a fractured, dysfunctional, disenfranchised, population bled dry of wealth and opportunity.

Not everything has to have a profit motive.
 
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