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NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

Couldn't agree more. When they were interviewing his two friends on the news, and the friends were like, "Yeah he said he was going to go shoot up a school," I started screaming at the TV, "THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING??" They have blood on their hands, too, and should be held accountable.
That makes my blood boil, in a lot of these instances someone knew what the person was planning and either ignored it or dismissed it. I don't see how anyone could live with themselves after something like this knowing they could have done something, just place the call and have the situation checked out.
 
Tougher gun laws might mean they would be able to go to church and actually, I don't know - worship? - instead of getting their heads blown off.

Kinda seems hard to imagine the regime of laws that would have stopped this guy.
 
I don't have a problem with conservatives pointing out black-on-black crime in our crime-riddled cities EVERY weekend.
Yet I don't see solutions except to enforce existing laws--what are their plans to do that?
I've discussed this matter with TD extensively--our resident expert on the law/guns--I mean that sincerely.

My plan is to go into the most crime-ridden sections with a coordinated force of National Guard/State Police/City Police and cordon off one block at a time.
Go in about 5:00 AM when gangbangers are sleeping in and hung over from some drug cocktail.
Have the NG prevent anyone from entering and leaving--have the state and city police bring in dogs and all necessary armed equipment.
The NG would prevent any residents from escaping--and would search them for guns and drugs--those without FOIDs would be arrested.

You can imagine the uproar from minorities.
Minority leaders must be brought on board at the BEGINNING of this process--including the Silent Majority of minority folks who want this crime cleaned up.

CanadaJohn mentioned to me this is exactly what was done a few years ago in Toronto.
There comes a time when extraordinary solutions must be applied to extraordinary problems .


Yeah, well... it's a thought. I've said similar things about Chicago, Detroit, etc.

Of course, there would be a lot of outcry about violating Constitutional rights... and not without some justification. There would be deaths... some drugged up 'banger would think he could take on the NG or Troopers, some sufficiently desperate bunch would convince themselves they could break through. As soon as people knew what was up they'd be ditching stuff fast as they could and shouting "not mine!' when it turned up. The courts would be clogged for years.


Simpler IMHO to make it easy for the citizenry to get trained up and go armed and form armed Community Watch patrols... and watch the 'bangers lose a lot of their swagger or end up in the morgue. Be bloody, but personally I think it is better than the citizenry "thin the herds" when caught in the act than for the State to do it unilaterally. The State is already too powerful.
 
The NRA is the most vile and disgusting organization in this country. Who in the hell wants to carry a gun to worship in church and how could anyone suggest that. They use every tragic event to promote their insane ideology. This group appeals to militia idiots and skin heads.

You think the NRA is worse than NAMBLA? Could there be just a bit of hyperbole in your statement?
 
Tougher gun laws might mean they would be able to go to church and actually, I don't know - worship? - instead of getting their heads blown off.



Improbable.

Clean record? Buy a gun from a gun dealer.
Bad record? Buy a gun from a drug dealer. 300 million guns out there, many of them never registered.


There's just very little likelihood of any gun control law having sufficient effect to seriously reduce these events, right up until the point where we search EVERY house and building in America with police and trained dogs and institute draconian controls... and the people aren't going to stand for that.
 
It's a little more complex than most realize.


In SC, you CAN carry a gun into a church IF you have permission from the Church.


After some incidents several years back, MANY churches now have armed security of some kind... in many cases, members with concealed carry permits who have been authorized to carry in the church. Some churches, like my old home church, authorized all members to carry if they have a permit.


This church chose not to.


It might have made a difference.... we can't say for sure, but at least the possibility would have been there.


I would question the NRA official's timing and wording a bit, as far as tact goes, but he's not entirely wrong.
The big issue is that even though there is truth in his comments, it's swallowed by the timing and tact as you mentioned. In no way should a commentary be issued on the gun argument at this time, but especially not blaming the deceased in this, it was an awful time, place, and manner and appalling.
 
The big issue is that even though there is truth in his comments, it's swallowed by the timing and tact as you mentioned. In no way should a commentary be issued on the gun argument at this time, but especially not blaming the deceased in this, it was an awful time, place, and manner and appalling.

Obama immediately used this crisis to lament guns. The inanimate object. Where was the taste in that?
 
Obama immediately used this crisis to lament guns. The inanimate object. Where was the taste in that?
Oh trust me, I am the last guy who would ever give a Democrat a pass, Obama has been classless for every one of these. Neither side should be using this as a political tool, it is disgusting and a tactic I've named "dancing on the graves".
 
The big issue is that even though there is truth in his comments, it's swallowed by the timing and tact as you mentioned. In no way should a commentary be issued on the gun argument at this time, but especially not blaming the deceased in this, it was an awful time, place, and manner and appalling.



Concur. The message had a certain amount of truth in it; the timing and wording of it were a bit idiotic, rubbing salt into a wound.
 
Concur. The message had a certain amount of truth in it; the timing and wording of it were a bit idiotic, rubbing salt into a wound.
Honestly, the thing I caught most from the statement was blaming the victims. I never stand for that and it makes me wonder just who the hell appoints these types into high positions in organizations, whether that be a company, political group/party, etc.
 
Honestly, the thing I caught most from the statement was blaming the victims. I never stand for that and it makes me wonder just who the hell appoints these types into high positions in organizations, whether that be a company, political group/party, etc.



Foot-in-Mouth disease is epidemic. In just the past 48 hours, we've seen/heard it from Obama, Hillary, Mittens McRomney, this NRA guy, several black leaders, and a host of media types. Call in the CDC, its a pandemic. :D
 
Foot-in-Mouth disease is epidemic. In just the past 48 hours, we've seen/heard it from Obama, Hillary, Mittens McRomney, this NRA guy, several black leaders, and a host of media types. Call in the CDC, its a pandemic. :D
:lol: Yes indeed, that gives me an idea; let's quarantine them all immediately because it seems contagious.
 
Foot-in-Mouth disease is epidemic. In just the past 48 hours, we've seen/heard it from Obama, Hillary, Mittens McRomney, this NRA guy, several black leaders, and a host of media types. Call in the CDC, its a pandemic. :D

Hey you forgot about Perry Are you a Texas a phobe or something?
 
Kinda seems hard to imagine the regime of laws that would have stopped this guy.

English/American law depends on a presumption of innocence, and stiff, irrelevant, punishment, such as fines or imprisonment, which do not help the individual with his challenges in life.

A regime of laws, that would affect the culture of violence, would be where individuals would receive incentives for acquiring skills related to their inability to handler anger, and other relevant emotional education.

Even if the friends had reported Dylann Roof to authorities, No crime had been committed, and they did not know of a specific threatened plot with a date, time and place, so police would not have had a power of arrest.

The ACLU felt that too many people were being institutionalized, when the States provided mental health hospitals, and formed an alliance with Reagan and the Pharmaceutical companies, to make civil commitments much harder to accomplish.

There are a number of anger management and self-control courses, or regimens of therapy, that have been developed and are not exorbitant in price.

The vision of reducing violence in America, could be for the Laws that would fund and incentivize anger management courses/counseling, for a citizen-friend-relative complaint that currently does not meet legal criteria of Guilt of a crime.

Self-control improvement, children & crime : The Campbell Collaboration

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Self-control+programs

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=anger+management+programs


Alternatives to imprisonment are often regarded as coddling criminals. From the standpoint of recidivism, imprisonment is stupid.

Reducing the occurrence of crimes of violence can be done without changing gun laws.

The NRA has been against alternatives to prison, and have advocated more imprisonment as a solution to violent crime.

Much violence is related to drug use, and withdrawal. There are many drug programs to help those whom drugs are a problem.

The programs have been developed and researched as effective, but the utilization and incentivizing of self-help programs is not optimized in the world, or the US.



//
 
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No. There is no-one to blame for this other than the one pulling the trigger, and to a somewhat lesser extent those who knew and failed to stop him, those who taught him to hate, and those who believe the same things he does. There is no way no know, there is no reason to believe that any of those 9 people would have been carrying or if one of them was that it would have made a difference.

It wouldn't have had to be one of those nine people, for heaven's sake. Could have been anyone present.

What we DO know is that making it a gun-free zone didn't stop the bad guy and HIS gun.
 
He has no point. Churches should not allow guns in a house of Worship.

Emanuel A.M.E. Church did not allow guns. We can all see how that turned out.
 
I'm just saying that the likelihood of him getting the death penalty is offset by the fact that whites rarely get the death penalty for interracial murder. The odds are basically 10 to 1 in his favor. Sure, it can be argued that this falls under the 'special' cases area, however seeing how things are already evolving, I doubt it will. The guy is going to get a nice comfy cell in solitary confinement at some super-max. 3 square meals a day, 1 hour of federally mandated rec-time. I still can't believe the judge called the killer's family victims and asked people to rally around them. They ****ing gave him the gun. Directly or indirectly they facilitated his actions. That **** really was a slap in the face to the families.

I don't know if you can prove that claim. It is true that people who kill whites are more likely to get the DP than people who kill blacks. The race of the offender is not important. but one of the reasons why is that blacks who are murdered are far more likely to have records than whites murdered. and like it or not, DAs are less likely to seek the death penalty when a thug is killed. I remember as a young prosecutor meeting with the senior county felony prosecutor on a drug forfeiture case I had that featured a drug family and one of the witnesses was in country jail awaiting a murder charge, Apparently he killed a guy stealing drugs from the business. it had all the aggravating circumstances-a hit man, silencing a witness (the thief was gonna rat out the dealers) etc so I said "Is the guy under a possible death penalty spec case. and the senior county prosecutor said no-I said NO? he said no-its "the cockroach rule" you whack a cockroach and the County Prosecutor isn't going for a death penalty spec.

some articles

Death Penalty Found More Likely if Victim Is White - NYTimes.com


The Death Penalty - Discover the Networks


In his 1987 book The Myth of a Racist Criminal Justice System, Professor William Wilbanks cites an important study which found that between 1977 and 1984, white killers were actually more likely to get the death penalty than were black killers. Even more to the point, Wilbanks notes that "whites who had killed whites were more likely than blacks who had killed whites to be on death row, [and] whites who killed blacks were more likely to reach death row than blacks who killed blacks."[2]

In their 1997 book America in Black and White, Stephan and Abigail Thernstrom cite what they call "the most careful statistical study" of the death penalty that was ever conducted. Commissioned by the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, this study analyzed some 2,500 murder cases that occurred in Georgia between 1973 and 1979. The researchers found that white defendants guilty of murder were 80% more likely (7.4% vs. 4.1%) to receive a death sentence than comparable black defendants. From these figures, no sustainable case can be made for the notion that black killers in general are disproportionately sent to death row.
 
Emanuel A.M.E. Church did not allow guns. We can all see how that turned out.

He has never given us an explanation why churches should ban guns

the only possible arguments (assuming he is not against CCW in other areas-maybe he is)

1) church goers are less trustworthy or less able to carry firearms properly than car buyers, lingerie shoppers, restaurant diners etc

2) No one would ever think of attacking a Church or if they do, God will smite them down

nothing else could possibly make sense
 
You think the NRA is worse than NAMBLA? Could there be just a bit of hyperbole in your statement?

to her it might be true-NAMBLA doesn't keep leftwing politicians out of office. NAMBLA doesn't advocate victims of crime shoot back. the NRA keeps leftwing politicians out of office and supports the intended victims of crime shooting their attackers.- that is really upsetting to many left-wingers.
 
If the good reverend had given his consent to members to carry concealed weopons, it's possible someone would have been armed other the Mr. Roof. Not defending the NRA board member personally, just his logic, which is sound. The fact that he's right and touched a nerve is why his comments are getting such a visceral reaction from the anti-gun crowd. They just can't acknowledge that people who have the ability to defend themselves stand a better chance of not getting shot than those who don't. Seems like common sense, but then maybe I expect too much from liberals.

No one other than a psychopath is going to carry a gun to a bible study meeting at church. I don't care if you are left, right, or totally non-political, other than nutjobs and psychopaths, no one is going to carry a gun to house of God other than a psychopath. Sometimes bad things happen. We cannot prevent every tragedy.
 
Charles Cotton is a despicable human being and apologist for murder with no consideration/thoughts at all for what the victims families and friends are going through right now.

Pond scum has more worth than him.
 
He has never given us an explanation why churches should ban guns

the only possible arguments (assuming he is not against CCW in other areas-maybe he is)

1) church goers are less trustworthy or less able to carry firearms properly than car buyers, lingerie shoppers, restaurant diners etc

2) No one would ever think of attacking a Church or if they do, God will smite them down

nothing else could possibly make sense

Or,

3) Sometimes bad things just happen and you cannot prevent every horrible thing that could happen from happening. You could make it legal to carry a gun into every church in American, but legal or not, no one other than a psychopath is going to carry a gun into the a house of God.
 
It really bothers me that the NRA jumped to the politics of the issue almost as quickly as the President did. Confirms for me my decision to leave the NRA I made a few years back.

From what I hear, there are many (Although smaller) better organizations out there that do nothing but stand for their point of freedom and keep out of these potential chances to ruin their reputation.
 
Charles Cotton is a despicable human being and apologist for murder with no consideration/thoughts at all for what the victims families and friends are going through right now.

Pond scum has more worth than him.

that seems to be a bit of hyperbole. the killer is responsible but disarmed victims are easier to kill. we saw lots of lefties blame Adam Lanza's mom for the sandy hook murders as well.

Pond scum-LOL. the fact is, people who don't like the NRA are going to pretend what this guy said was horrible, those who find victim disarmament zones to be silly are going to note that this is another case where the body count was higher than it should have been if someone had been able to legally carry
 
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