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Thread: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Name another purpose for ICBMs. If you can, then they would also be a tool with several purposes. If you can't, then they are a weapon and ONLY a weapon.
    Both Atlas and Titan ICBMs were used in the early US manned space shots as was the Soviet R7 used to this day. That does not detract from the fact that they were developed as weapons delivery systems not just boosters
    The would believe that a gun is what they were told it was. Many would think it was a toy. You don't seem to understand that guns have several purposes.
    The guns primary purpose is killing humans and not hunting or target shooting. it would not have been invented in the first place were this not so and niether would the aforementioned ICBM

    Name another purpose for a lawnmower. If you can, then it is a tool with several purposes. If you cannot, then it's intent is part of the design.
    And I'm sure you can slice watermelons with a sword too but that doesn't make it cutlery . My original statement stands
    Last edited by flogger; 06-25-15 at 10:17 AM.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, that wasn't the point at all. The quote "if the queen had balls she'd be king" is an illustration that changing the parameters of a situation will of course alter the outcome, but some of those alterations may not have enough logic behind them to substantiate them.
    It's logical to conclude that a person with a gun has a better chance of successful defense than one who doesn't:

    When confronted by armed police, gunmen sometimes surrender though more often they kill themselves. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, what neither terrorists nor lunatics ever do is kill themselves (or surrender) when faced by unarmed victims.

    Gun Free Zones: Newsroom: The Independent Institute
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Yeah, I get that they're relevant. I just can't get how they're relevant to the thread, which is whether people should be permitted to carry firearms into church. What does poverty have to do with it? Or high incarceration rates? Are you arguing that arming people makes the country less safe? So what is the problem in Chicago, Newark, Baltimore, D.C., etc.? Isn't a high homicide rate an argument for giving people a means of defense, or are you arguing that if you only permit criminals and loons to have access to guns while disarming everyone else they'll become more civilized?
    The US has a high rate of violence. That is what I was getting to.
    My opinion, guns not in Church. It is a place of worship. If you feel nsafe find another church.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    The US has a high rate of violence. That is what I was getting to.
    Yes, it does, but that's not because people use guns for self-defense:

    Felons commit over 90 percent of murders, with the remainder carried out primarily by juveniles and the mentally unbalanced. The United States already has laws forbidding all three groups from owning guns, which, by definition, are ineffective against the lawless. “Gun control,” therefore, only “controls” those who have done nothing to merit such regulations.

    Gun Control Restricts Those Least Likely to Commit Violent Crimes: Newsroom: The Independent Institute
    Have you ever noticed that when a "gun free zone" becomes a target people with brains harden them? Europe is seeing increasing anti-Semitism, so synagogues recently began posting armed security during High Holy Days. Apparently, they didn't want to leave their fates to prayer only or believe that terrorists, criminals, and loons will follow the law.

    Ex-Israeli SAS men guard synagogues | The Times
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Both Atlas and Titan ICBMs were used in the early US manned space shots as was the Soviet R7 used to this day. That does not detract from the fact that they were developed as weapons delivery systems not just boosters
    So, they were developed as weapons but now have other purposes. So they are tools. Thank you.

    The guns primary purpose is killing humans and not hunting or target shooting. it would not have been invented in the first place were this not so and niether would the aforementioned ICBM
    There are MANY current uses for guns. Target shooting, collecting, shooting humans, shooting animals... those are just the ones that I can think of now. Something's purpose for invention doesn't mean that it doesn't have other purposes, also. But, the point is that the gun has no intent. The individual using the gun does.

    And I'm sure you can slice watermelons with a sword too but that doesn't make it cutlery . My original statement stands
    Your original statement still doesn't cut the watermelon.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    It's logical to conclude that a person with a gun has a better chance of successful defense than one who doesn't:
    It is simplistic to conclude that allowing people to carry guns will result in what you are claiming.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So, they were developed as weapons but now have other purposes. So they are tools. Thank you.

    There are MANY current uses for guns. Target shooting, collecting, shooting humans, shooting animals... those are just the ones that I can think of now. Something's purpose for invention doesn't mean that it doesn't have other purposes, also. But, the point is that the gun has no intent. The individual using the gun does.

    Your original statement still doesn't cut the watermelon.
    You are wrong of course and you will defend the gun at any cost, no matter what price in blood your society is forced to pay for it. I could now present a load of facts and figures that illustrate that point but we both know there would be little point in me doing so. I have no real wish to indulge such wilful obfuscation any further frankly and am just thankful to live in a society where I'm free from the fear of being shot. If you are unable to even acknowlege the fundamental point that a gun is a weapon then there's nowhere else to go with pursuing such nonsense.

    Good day

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    It's logical to conclude that a person with a gun has a better chance of successful defense than one who doesn't:
    Given how easily criminals can acquire guns in your society it is also illogical to expect that an armed perp won't have his gun out before you do. The most likely scenario is that you will either be shot or robbed of your gun too.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Given how easily criminals can acquire guns in your society...
    So why would you create a scenario in which the only people who would have guns would be criminals or terrorists, as it is in, say, Russia or Mexico, which have tight restrictions on private firearms' ownership but high homicide rates?

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    ... it is also illogical to expect that an armed perp won't have his gun out before you do.
    If you don't have a gun it's a 100% certainty that the perp will have his gun out before you do. And mass shooters don't normally surrender, commit suicide, or get shot when confronted by unarmed victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The most likely scenario is that you will either be shot or robbed of your gun too.
    The most likely scenario is the mass shooter who's focused on random victims will search for a soft target. He doesn't want to face resistance. That's why he'll attack a school, shopping mall, movie theater, church, or similar target instead of a police station. Even the Israelis, who severely limit private firearms' ownership, recognize this:

    In the wake of a deadly attack in Jerusalem, synagogues throughout Israel have been instructed to place security guards at their entrances.

    Israelís public security minister, Yitzhak Aharonovich, also announced on Tuesday that his office would ease requirements for gun licenses.

    Israeli synagogues instructed to hire security guards | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The guns primary purpose is killing humans and not hunting or target shooting.
    I own a quite a few personal firearms. I can imagine using exactly two of them to kill another human being, and that would only be in self-defense.
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