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Thread: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

  1. #571
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    LOL. You're trying very hard to ignore a simple point. BY FAR the greatest risk you'll take going to church is getting in your car and driving there, which is 1000s of times greater than the risk of attack by anyone while in the pews or during Bible study.



    OK, so you'll do anything to avoid responding to a simple point. But to answer your question, I'm indifferent to the Hughes Amendment. I haven't given the issue 1 minute of reflection in the past decade.
    I drive safely, have a top rated car for that -have fire extinguisher in it etc. I have taken defensive driving seminars and I don't text etc while in a car. I also think its moronic to say because there is something else that causes you danger you should ignore another threat

    I play the odd for both cars and attacks so your Simple point is just plain silly
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I am all in favor of taking mental illness more seriously

    but you all apparently ignore the balancing act

    we have a thing called Doctor-Patient privilege

    we also want people getting treatment

    you see if a guy who owns guns knows that if he tells his doctor he has some issues-be they ones that indicate he really could be a threat or not-that the doctor is going to tell the police and the police are going to take his guns away do you think it might deter people from seeking mental health treatment?

    a doctor has a duty to tell the authorities (I know, I defended a VA doctor who was being sued for telling the VA police that one patient told the doctor that he wanted to kill another patient and how he was going to do it) if a patient is a clear and present danger to another such as the case i described. but a doctor cannot tell the authorities that someone merely is suffering PTSD or depression

    and lots of privacy advocates oppose making non-court ordered mental health records part of the NICS data base.
    There is a natural tension between privacy rights and public safety. In the case of Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech), both HIPAA and FERPA requirements were at issue. I think this may have been true in Jared Loughner's case too; I remember reading a NY Times piece at the time of the Arizona shootings that indicated that just as in Cho's case, a professor had recognized a problem and reported it but could do little else.

    I don't want to live in a Minority Report society, and I guess we all need to ask ourselves whether the potential for increased safety is worth the loss of privacy.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    It's logical that if one has a means of defense an attack can be halted in its tracks, because we've seen it happen, most recently in the Texas cartoon attacks in which we ended up with two dead perps and zero dead cartoonists. An outcome does not have to be certain to make sense. It's speculation that the Secret Service can prevent the assassination of the President, so would it be logical to remove his detail?
    The point to me isn't whether trained, qualified gun owners present might have stopped an attack. Of course. And if they'd hired armed guards for every meeting, that might have stopped the attack. If they'd all been wearing body armor, maybe no one is killed. If they'd trained in martial arts, and a black belt attended, he might have taken out the shooter without the use of a gun. I recall reading he reloaded more than once - plenty of time for a physical, non-firearm response.

    So, to pick one example of the what ifs above, does it make sense for you to wear body armor all day, every day, since it could keep you safe if a mad gunman shoots you? Or does it make sense to hire armed guards at the church doors to frisk all who attend every gathering of people?

    Or to use the example I keep using with Turtle, does it make sense to wear a helmet on your daily commute? Why not? Helmets save lives and 30,000 are killed per year in the U.S. in traffic accidents.....

    And with the POTUS and Secret Service, you've reduced the speculation quite a bit - it's really apples and acorns or whatever. POTUS is the target of endless death threats, and Secret Service POTUS detail is an elite, highly trained force. Some grandma with a revolver is far more likely to panic when faced with an armed killer firing live rounds than successfully take him out.

  4. #574
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The point to me isn't whether trained, qualified gun owners present might have stopped an attack. Of course.
    But that's the point I was addressing. Apparently, it's not obvious to some that people who assert their right to defend themselves just might succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And if they'd hired armed guards for every meeting, that might have stopped the attack. If they'd all been wearing body armor, maybe no one is killed. If they'd trained in martial arts, and a black belt attended, he might have taken out the shooter without the use of a gun. I recall reading he reloaded more than once - plenty of time for a physical, non-firearm response.

    So, to pick one example of the what ifs above, does it make sense for you to wear body armor all day, every day, since it could keep you safe if a mad gunman shoots you? Or does it make sense to hire armed guards at the church doors to frisk all who attend every gathering of people?

    Or to use the example I keep using with Turtle, does it make sense to wear a helmet on your daily commute? Why not? Helmets save lives and 30,000 are killed per year in the U.S. in traffic accidents.....
    Now you're getting into questions of probability and what's reasonable or appropriate to counter a particular threat. Different issues. While a person's chances of being raped, assaulted, robbed, murdered, or otherwise becoming a victim of a violent crime on any given day are statistically slight, we also know that more than one million violent crimes occur in this country every year (FBI Violent Crime Offense Figures). So is it reasonable for average people to strap on full body armor after they have their morning coffee but before they begin their daily commute? Probably not. On the other hand, is it reasonable for a person to strap a handgun to his thigh after he puts on his pants and socks? Apparently, it's not that inconvenient or uncomfortable, because millions of people across the country do just that or something similar. Same principle with helmets or anything else.
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I know these nine people are dead. As the NRA board member so indelicately noted, they might be alive today if someone had used a weapon to defend them.



    If a police force and army armed with fully-automatic SIG assault rifles is good enough for the Pope at the Vatican, it should be good enough for everyone else, but practical people should take whatever they can get.



    In the rest of the developed world, only the rich, politicians, and other notable dignitaries are worthy of the protection offered by firearms, while the peons are left to fend for themselves.
    Why does the rest of the developed world not have the problems that are endemic in the US?
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

  6. #576
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Why does the rest of the developed world not have the problems that are endemic in the US?
    I suspect you won't like the real answers. Its not because they don't trust their citizens to be armed
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  7. #577
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Carrying a gun may not be about theory or odds, but (to avoid making this personal) I'm quite sure the vast majority of those who carry firearms make more dangerous choices than going unarmed every day and ignore the risks. Just one example, those who drink to excess, smoke, are overweight, and/or get no real exercise are far more likely to die of disease caused by that than a 'bad guy' in most areas of the U.S. and certainly the risks are 100s or 1000s of times higher than getting attacked at church.

    Or to put this another way, this all started with some incredible idiot at NRA making comments about carrying guns in churches. But I'm 100% positive that same guy would oppose new OSHA regs addressing remote risks in the work place, or EPA issuing new regs for cleaner air that MIGHT save 500 lives per year, but he wants everyone to go armed at church. It only makes sense because he works for the marketing arm of the gun manufacturers and fear sells lots of guns, i.e. he is for addressing remote risks at church with a GUN because his clients sell guns. But if addressing remote risks costs his clients or other interest groups that support the GOP money, I'd bet any amount he'll oppose them, and no one would take the bet on the other side.


    My point remains.

    To some it is about theory and odds.

    To some of us, it is about **** we've already seen go down at least one time too many.

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  8. #578
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Up to you. To me, Jesus seems like the "turn the other cheek" type. When Christ was being arrested, Peter drew a weapon, and Jesus rebuked him for it.

    Live by the gun, die by the gun.




    Yeah, I'm ok with that. Made my peace with it long ago before I did my tour in Law Enforcement.



    If some of us don't take that risk, all the innocents of the world suffer.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What I am saying is this - we as a people have a right to decide that there are places like schools where no person other than armed security should bring guns there. Airports and government buildings like courts would be another such example. In addition, there are private buildings that can decide for themselves that issue.

    If a person attempts to kill people in that setting and a customer or visitor stops them with their own gun that they were not suppose to have I would welcome their intervention if it saved lives, hurt no other people and look at it as a practical and realistic event which happened despite the written law.

    Did they violate the law? Yup. Did they do what they were not suppose to do? Yup. But given the circumstances of an emergency situation and the positive result that ensued in saving lives - that can be overlooked.

    I would consider such an event to be the rare exception to the rule and something which is fairly rare and not something which should guide us in setting policy because of that.

    However, as a matter of law and as a matter of what kind of society we live in - I support such designations where appropriate. I am on record as agreeing with the NRA that there should be armed security on duty at every school in America. I support such a proposal and think it is a way to avoid turning American and every place in it into some 21st century version of the mythic Old West where everybody walks around armed until they end up on Boot Hill. I believe that - in the end - such society will only have more deaths and more killings and more suffering and the policy would do more harm than good.

    Is that a contradiction? perhaps it is in a way if you are looking for a "gotcha" moment. I think not however. What I advocate as public policy and what I can tolerate and look the other way at in a very rare exception turned out positively - I believe - are two different things that are simply practical and pragmatic.

    I can think of other examples - I support speed limits and enforcement of them but if a person is rushing someone in great distress to a hospital and they exceed that speed limit - I can look the other way providing they injure nobody in the process.

    I believe in realistic pragmatism and looking at exceptions as rarities and not something to set public policy by or for.

    I hope that answers your question.

    Yeah I got ya.


    Thing is you are, in a sort of backhanded way, asking CCWers to assume the risk of breaking the law in order to be there to stop the bad guy in the place where you're not supposed to be armed.


    And we've already established that "gun free zones" don't stop criminals... not unless there is no access but through a metal detector AND the entries are all guarded by ARMED guards, like at the courthouse.


    Otherwise "gun free zone" is just a sad joke.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I suspect you won't like the real answers. Its not because they don't trust their citizens to be armed
    Me I am always open for good discussion. Only problem is at times it does goes better over a cold beer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

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