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Thread: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    No, it's only the biggest factor when all else fails.

    The victims, and this kid were failed by broken education, broken families, societal apathy, profit only based pharmaceuticals, desensitization to violence, media hyperbole and sensationalism that makes mundane events into vehicles of fear to advance ideas that can't otherwise succeed.

    The biggest factor is that we are a fractured, dysfunctional, disenfranchised, population bled dry of wealth and opportunity.

    Not everything has to have a profit motive.
    Jebus. We aren't talking about some grand abstraction here-we are talking about real life. You can blame this on society, and you will missing the point.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    There is no rational reason to arm yourself in church. The odds of it keeping you safe are for all practical purposes ZERO. You took thousands of times greater risk driving to the church. If you want to keep yourself safe that day, wear your seatbelt, drive the speed limit, don't run red lights or talk/text on your cell phone while driving. That will do FAR more than arming 55 million gatherings at churches per year.



    We're talking about church.

    I'm sure there are times and places where carrying a concealed handgun is a reasonably good idea. I've never encountered one in my life, but I live in a safe area and walk routinely late at night without worry. Not everyone is so lucky. I won't make broad statements on the subject.
    you are in no position to decree what is rational when it comes to guns because your positions are clearly irrational.

    what makes a church different than a mall or a theater or a school? does the fact that a church just was shot up play any role in your silly argument

    I live in one of the safest areas in Ohio and a few days ago, an armed individual broke into a nearby home, terrorized the occupants and robbed them

    years ago I was in a very safe area-a college environment. The DA noted the two robbers figured no one would be packing which is why they traveled across town to pick this place to engage in criminal activity. and those two SOBs were just unlucky enough to try to mug the one guy on the street of college and graduate students, who had a CCW license and knew how to use it as well as looking like just another graduate student. I was the only attempted mugging in that neighborhood in a five year period. and from what my local cop friend from there tells me-after the DA pointed out that almost every adult in that area who wasn't a grad or college student had a permit to carry-there hasn't been another attempted mugging there since then-30 years later
    Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants View Post
    Time for real gun control
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    You too are a gun banner if you want ANY person banned from guns.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    No it's common decency that should be applied to all victims and their families, no matter what side of the gun debate you sit on. Now you can call it whatever you like to defend an apologist for murder, I couldn't care less.
    So demonstrate your consistency by showing how outraged you were when Obama used this incident to further his anti-gun agenda.

    Who do you feel is "defending an apologist for murder"?

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I couldn't care less. I find religion to be rather silly myself.
    You don't care but you're posting about it...?

    and your fear of guns in the hands of good people versus the chances of being in a gun free zone when its attacked by some turd who doesn't care if there is a no gun policy is really pretty stupid IMHO.
    My fear doesn't have to be rational to affect what a gun toting person does to my experience in church. Since the odds of a mass murder are approximately 0.0000001%, a reasonable choice for the church is to concern themselves with a welcoming and comfortable experience for all of their congregants.

    oh btw I am very well trained. I was trained well enough to carry handguns on planes or in federal courthouses. I also had perfect qualification scores on the USMS qualification course. on top of that I have held "Grandmaster" or Life Master qualifications in other high stress high speed shooting sports
    Great, and unless I know you very well, and perhaps even if I do, you'll leave your gun in the car at my house.
    I have not ever needed a fire extinguisher in my house and I am 56. but I have them all over the place. I have flood insurance as well even though we live on a slight hill. You saying you don't need a gun is absolutely worthless as an argument
    OK, there are about 375,000 house fires per year that kill 2,500 per year, injure another 12,000. Extinguishers are cheap and I've NEVER heard of one killing even one person when misused, so the downside of having 100 in your house (besides unsightly) is zero. Guns kill about 30,000 per year. So it's completely different in every possible way than carrying a gun to church to prevent, if all goes perfectly, 1 or 2 shooting per year.

    And if you don't need flood insurance don't buy it, but that doesn't pose even a slight risk to anyone, unless you pull it out and inflict a paper cut with the policy, or burn it....

    Your logic isn't all that good tonight.

    the guy in CT whose two daughters were burned alive after he was viciously assaulted and his wife raped and then killed probably believed that too-up to a certain horrible time in his life
    I'm not sure what the point is. Some guy decides to spend $10,000 (or more???) to outfit his car with a NASCAR caliber crash system to keep him safe on his commute can laugh at you for driving your regular car to work by pointing to the 10s of thousand of traffic deaths. Does that make you irrational for NOT outfitting your Lincoln or Audi with the same restraint system Dale Jr. uses at Bristol Motor Speedway?

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You don't care but you're posting about it...?



    My fear doesn't have to be rational to affect what a gun toting person does to my experience in church. Since the odds of a mass murder are approximately 0.0000001%, a reasonable choice for the church is to concern themselves with a welcoming and comfortable experience for all of their congregants.



    Great, and unless I know you very well, and perhaps even if I do, you'll leave your gun in the car at my house.


    OK, there are about 375,000 house fires per year that kill 2,500 per year, injure another 12,000. Extinguishers are cheap and I've NEVER heard of one killing even one person when misused, so the downside of having 100 in your house (besides unsightly) is zero. Guns kill about 30,000 per year. So it's completely different in every possible way than carrying a gun to church to prevent, if all goes perfectly, 1 or 2 shooting per year.

    And if you don't need flood insurance don't buy it, but that doesn't pose even a slight risk to anyone, unless you pull it out and inflict a paper cut with the policy, or burn it....

    Your logic isn't all that good tonight.



    I'm not sure what the point is. Some guy decides to spend $10,000 (or more???) to outfit his car with a NASCAR caliber crash system to keep him safe on his commute can laugh at you for driving your regular car to work by pointing to the 10s of thousand of traffic deaths. Does that make you irrational for NOT outfitting your Lincoln or Audi with the same restraint system Dale Jr. uses at Bristol Motor Speedway?
    I don't go into homes of people who are afraid of guns. guns don't kill anyone

    its people using guns to fire bullets into other people or themselves. most killings are suicides btw or criminals killing criminals

    the fact is-you are afraid of guns-dont own one-unlike you, I don't tell you that you have to conform to my values. I will keep my guns but I won't force you to own one.
    Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants View Post
    Time for real gun control
    Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants View Post
    You too are a gun banner if you want ANY person banned from guns.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I don't mind others being armed so much as it isn't something I agree with for my own behavior, I don't personally think it is right under normal circumstances. If things deteriorate God forbid I may rethink that because I also feel as a Catholic it is my duty to protect innocent life. We are most definitely in some conflicting times, that said, my heart and prayers absolutely go out to the victims and their loved ones.
    You're a good man LMR.

    Let's hope that things never deteriorate that far.
    Ricky John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche
    Micah David-Cole Fletcher
    I have no personal connection to these men. Ricky and Taliesin died and Micah was severely injured because they chose not to sit by silently, instead, they chose to confront hate. My condolences to their families for their tremendous loss and my best wishes to Micah for a full recovery and long, fruitful life.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you are in no position to decree what is rational when it comes to guns because your positions are clearly irrational.
    The increase in safety from arming yourself in church is statistically zero. If you want to make a rational case for packing your Glock while worshiping in a church, make it.

    what makes a church different than a mall or a theater or a school? does the fact that a church just was shot up play any role in your silly argument
    Frankly in the vast majority of malls, theaters and schools there is also no rational reason to arm yourself. What you're saying is a variant of the Cheney doctrine which allegedly said that if the risk is 1% then we have to treat it as a certainty, but you're articulating the 0.00000001% doctrine when it comes to guns in churches.

    I live in one of the safest areas in Ohio and a few days ago, an armed individual broke into a nearby home, terrorized the occupants and robbed them
    And what? Because that happened we should all sit around watching TV with a gun at our fingertips at all times? I'm not sure what the point is. Yes, crime happens, murders happen. And......

    years ago I was in a very safe area-a college environment. The DA noted the two robbers figured no one would be packing which is why they traveled across town to pick this place to engage in criminal activity. and those two SOBs were just unlucky enough to try to mug the one guy on the street of college and graduate students, who had a CCW license and knew how to use it as well as looking like just another graduate student. I was the only attempted mugging in that neighborhood in a five year period. and from what my local cop friend from there tells me-after the DA pointed out that almost every adult in that area who wasn't a grad or college student had a permit to carry-there hasn't been another attempted mugging there since then-30 years later
    Nice story. But I'd love to know what safe area exists anywhere were almost every adult has a carry permit. Probably got a lot of people wearing tin foil too.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The increase in safety from arming yourself in church is statistically zero. If you want to make a rational case for packing your Glock while worshiping in a church, make it.



    Frankly in the vast majority of malls, theaters and schools there is also no rational reason to arm yourself. What you're saying is a variant of the Cheney doctrine which allegedly said that if the risk is 1% then we have to treat it as a certainty, but you're articulating the 0.00000001% doctrine when it comes to guns in churches.



    And what? Because that happened we should all sit around watching TV with a gun at our fingertips at all times? I'm not sure what the point is. Yes, crime happens, murders happen. And......



    Nice story. But I'd love to know what safe area exists anywhere were almost every adult has a carry permit. Probably got a lot of people wearing tin foil too.
    your failure is thinking those who legally have a gun and know how to use it are statistically a source of problems. that is not true.

    you are unaware of the fact that years ago-in some Eastern states, the only way you could own a pistol and take it out of your house was to have such a permit

    and when you call such people "tin foil wearers" you prove what I have said about gun restrictionists or gun haters

    its not crime you despise nor criminals, its people who own guns and don't tend to vote the same way you do
    Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants View Post
    Time for real gun control
    Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants View Post
    You too are a gun banner if you want ANY person banned from guns.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Jebus. We aren't talking about some grand abstraction here-we are talking about real life. You can blame this on society, and you will missing the point.
    It's not an abstraction. It's the root problem. Not just for gun crime, but for gang violence, addiction, mental illness, abortion, and so on....

    I get your point, someone trained with a gun could have stopped him. I get it didn't matter that it was a gun free zone to the kid. But that will only have happened AFTER the shooting has started. The point is to not let our children fall through the cracks. Prevent it before it needs to be stopped.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    It's not an abstraction. It's the root problem. Not just for gun crime, but for gang violence, addiction, mental illness, abortion, and so on....

    I get your point, someone trained with a gun could have stopped him. I get it didn't matter that it was a gun free zone to the kid. But that will only have happened AFTER the shooting has started. The point is to not let our children fall through the cracks. Prevent it before it needs to be stopped.
    This person had a history of mental illness, as these shooters typically are.
    Sunshine and rainbows would not have changed that.

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