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Thread: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is speculative. even if they had been armed, its speculation to say they could have drawn and effectively engaged the killer so as to save 8 lives. MIGHT be alive is probably a fair comment but if you asked me-the correct position is that if the victims had proper training and weapons, they would have had a better chance of surviving then those who have no weapons and no other training.

    its all about increasing odds.
    I found more of his statement here:

    Charleston shootings: NRA blames victims as reactions echo Newtown | US news | The Guardian
    “Eight of his church members who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church are dead,” Cotton wrote. “Innocent people died because of his position on a political issue.”
    That makes it more than speculative.

    I take issue with the one comment on its own. "Might" is not a fair comment when speaking of another person's responsibility in the deaths of others in which he did not pull the trigger himself.
    Ricky John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche
    Micah David-Cole Fletcher
    I have no personal connection to these men. Ricky and Taliesin died and Micah was severely injured because they chose not to sit by silently, instead, they chose to confront hate. My condolences to their families for their tremendous loss and my best wishes to Micah for a full recovery and long, fruitful life.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that seems to be a bit of hyperbole. the killer is responsible but disarmed victims are easier to kill. we saw lots of lefties blame Adam Lanza's mom for the sandy hook murders as well.

    Pond scum-LOL. the fact is, people who don't like the NRA are going to pretend what this guy said was horrible, those who find victim disarmament zones to be silly are going to note that this is another case where the body count was higher than it should have been if someone had been able to legally carry
    I've been in many victim disarmament arenas in RED states like Oklahoma.
    I've never doubted that someone was concealed carrying besides policemen who are legal.
    Though I will add that we all went through metal detectors all six sessions of the Wrestling Nationals in St. Louis .
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It wouldn't have had to be one of those nine people, for heaven's sake. Could have been anyone present.

    What we DO know is that making it a gun-free zone didn't stop the bad guy and HIS gun.
    The gun free zone is irrelevant. I attend a church. Concealed carry is allowed here. I know the people I am with. I know them well. Not one person in there carries a gun just because it is legal. There is 0 reason to believe that even if they could have been allowed to carry anyone would have or that it would have mattered. It could have made it worse.

    What ifs are pointless. Noone knows which is my point that this being a gun free zone is irrelevant.

    What we do know is the people who were attacked and the laws in SC are not to blame. Saying this senator is even partly to blame because he failed to enact laws to allow people to carry guns in churches is a stupid and ignorant attempt to politicize this incident. This NRA exec needs to be bitch slapped hard enough to continually remind him to not exploit tragic deaths for political gain.

    And I am not anti gun. I dont think we really need more gun control. I dont think more gun control would have helped either. All gun control and anti gun control arguments are irrelevant to this incident. This is not about gun control anymore than it is about gay marriage, illegal aliens, the world series, or low calorie brownies.
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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    I found more of his statement here:

    Charleston shootings: NRA blames victims as reactions echo Newtown | US news | The Guardian


    That makes it more than speculative.

    I take issue with the one comment on its own. "Might" is not a fair comment when speaking of another person's responsibility in the deaths of others in which he did not pull the trigger himself.
    innocent people died because some asshole shot them. less of them may have died if they had been able to fight back effectively. do you disagree with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    I've been in many victim disarmament arenas in RED states like Oklahoma.
    I've never doubted that someone was concealed carrying besides policemen who are legal.
    Though I will add that we all went through metal detectors all six sessions of the Wrestling Nationals in St. Louis .
    yeah you never know who is going to stash a colt in their singlet or have a smith and wesson in their tights!!
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by WSUwarrior View Post
    "Mass murders" in places where the good guy has a gun do not turn into mass murders.
    Are there any stats for that?

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what about worshippers make them either immune from criminal attacks or incapable of responsibly possessing a firearm

    there is no reason why a church should be a victim disarmament zone.

    can you tell us why-other than you apparently are against people owning or carrying firearms no matter what?
    There are several good reasons.

    The odds that your armed congregation will ever use a gun to stop a mad man approach zero. 350,000 congregations, say 3 meetings a week, 52 per year, roughly 55 million gatherings minimum per year, and, what, maybe 5 incidents (1/10,000,000) per year that might potentially have been stopped with a qualified, trained, armed person who can reliably take out a shooter without killing other innocents. So the odds of a 'good guy with a gun' taking out a bad guy are less than being struck by lightning, by a factor of at least 10

    And for those of us who don't feel skeered without a gun on us at all times, an armed person changes the atmosphere for every one of those meetings for the vast majority of attendees, and for most of them they don't feel any safer (they aren't), and the change is negative, sometimes VERY negative. Lots of people have never shot and are simply very uncomfortable around firearms. Others may have very good reasons to fear them, and guns bring back horrible memories.

    I'm not scared of guns or of people with guns, but I don't want to worship with the guy next to me with a Glock, and worry if he's sane, if he knows anything about using his weapon, if his child is going to grab it, take it out of mom's purse while she's singing the hymn and shoot me in the back, that the idiot is going to take it into the bathroom and leave it on the back of the toilet for some child to grab, etc.

    So the increase in safety is zero, and it comes with it depending on who is attending, their life history, their comfort with firearms, some potentially huge downsides. Some will simply not attend if the congregation is armed. You can like that or agree or not, but that is just fact. About the only good thing is some people who for whatever reason feel obligated to be armed at all times for what are in most areas of the country irrational reasons will feel safer. Nearly everyone else AT BEST is ambivalent, and in just a huge number of cases, the gun will detract from the act of worship.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    innocent people died because some asshole shot them. less of them may have died if they had been able to fight back effectively. do you disagree with that?
    Might? With the least likely possibility. I think far fetched is not strong enough a term. Do you agree the that Cotton put the blame squarely on the pastor, without equivocation?
    Ricky John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche
    Micah David-Cole Fletcher
    I have no personal connection to these men. Ricky and Taliesin died and Micah was severely injured because they chose not to sit by silently, instead, they chose to confront hate. My condolences to their families for their tremendous loss and my best wishes to Micah for a full recovery and long, fruitful life.

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Why would anyone think it's ok to bring a gun to church??

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    Re: NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    There are several good reasons.

    The odds that your armed congregation will ever use a gun to stop a mad man approach zero. 350,000 congregations, say 3 meetings a week, 52 per year, roughly 55 million gatherings minimum per year, and, what, maybe 5 incidents (1/10,000,000) per year that might potentially have been stopped with a qualified, trained, armed person who can reliably take out a shooter without killing other innocents. So the odds of a 'good guy with a gun' taking out a bad guy are less than being struck by lightning, by a factor of at least 10

    And for those of us who don't feel skeered without a gun on us at all times, an armed person changes the atmosphere for every one of those meetings for the vast majority of attendees, and for most of them they don't feel any safer (they aren't), and the change is negative, sometimes VERY negative. Lots of people have never shot and are simply very uncomfortable around firearms. Others may have very good reasons to fear them, and guns bring back horrible memories.

    I'm not scared of guns or of people with guns, but I don't want to worship with the guy next to me with a Glock, and worry if he's sane, if he knows anything about using his weapon, if his child is going to grab it, take it out of mom's purse while she's singing the hymn and shoot me in the back, that the idiot is going to take it into the bathroom and leave it on the back of the toilet for some child to grab, etc.

    So the increase in safety is zero, and it comes with it depending on who is attending, their life history, their comfort with firearms, some potentially huge downsides. Some will simply not attend if the congregation is armed. You can like that or agree or not, but that is just fact. About the only good thing is some people who for whatever reason feel obligated to be armed at all times for what are in most areas of the country irrational reasons will feel safer. Nearly everyone else AT BEST is ambivalent, and in just a huge number of cases, the gun will detract from the act of worship.
    that is a silly response. mass shootings are extremely rare-be it churches, schools or movie theaters. Yet they happen enough for Democrats to want to ban semi auto rifles (used in less than 2% of all shootings) "high capacity" (the sign of dishonesty is using that term) magazines etc. If mass shootings are prevalent enough to call for stripping away the constitutional rights of millions then its far more reasonable for people to be armed as insurance against such shootings.

    I don't attend church save for funerals or weddings these days. I don't carry all the time-I always have a firearm in my car unless its illegal and the only reason why I have a gun on me now-at home is because the house across the street was the subject of an armed robbery (a very rare occurrence) and the robber has yet to be caught and I often am 100s of yards from my house due to the size of my property.

    but you would never ever know I had a gun. and if I was sitting in a pew next to you, you'd never know. So your claiming it would detract from your worship is just plain BOGUS. and that you appear to be afraid of people carrying guns is not my concern. If you are afraid to carry-DO NOT but stop judging those who do
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

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