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NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

excellent

what is pathetic is the sentiments of several posters who just assumed that churches are somehow different or that parishioners who carry other places are "psychopaths" to carry in a church or that someone else carrying in a church "diminishes" their worship experience". or finally that God will somehow make a church immune to criminal attack
To each his own on that subject, Jesus himself advocated arming oneself for defense should the situation warrant it so I wouldn't say that it is a sin per se to carry a defensive weapon into a church. I personally don't feel comfortable bringing a weapon into a church at this point in time because IMO preparing for even defensive violence goes against the message of love and peace, however, it is something I will concede is not the safest tactical position to hold, then again I have always been a bit of a risk taker.

I detest real violence, especially that violence which results in victimizing others(force superior to the intended target's level to defend). While I love competitive violence like the fighting sports and even sparring with buddies, violence with a component of hatred and a will to injure turns my stomach.
 
So you own guns and belong to a gun club. :lol:

You do realize that based on this alone many leftists already consider you a "gun nut".

I have to say, the gun club is a range basically that offers classes. I took the gun safety classes there and felt safe there. Strict rules while down range and professionals who assist and give helpful advice in a very modern facility. It is also a social club, where wives go as well. No one talks about shooting a person in self defense. No red necks, just cops, ex miltary, a fair amount of teachers, etc. I prefer round targets instead of the human outlines. It is sport for me. I want to target compete one day. LOL. I played darts in bars for years, so this is the next step. :lol: The tactical courses look kind of fun too, because it uses athletics combined with gun skill. My gun is unloaded while in the house, clip out and empty. It is locked up with my golf clubs because it is a tool of sport. This is not "gun nut" ownership. Gun nuts carry openly in malls, restaurants, churches, and Walmart and brag about what they will do if someone breaks into their house with a big grin on their face.
 
Send them home. Same as you would anyone else if they break the rule of "no weapons permitted".
It is truly not that simple unfortunately. To send the armed person home without some form of force to put teeth into that request, you are issuing a request with the hope that the person will comply peacefully, 99% of people will honor that request without incident, another .5% will leave with complaint, but that last half a percentage will be the one to look out for. I have said many times, statistics are useless when you run into the outlier.
 
oh there are gun owners who don't understand what is going on with the gun ban movement.

You said, "I don't believe her claim" talked about seminar callers like a good little Limbaugh sheep, then concluded "her comments are not consistent with gun ownership."

That's discounting the idea that we can have sincere disagreements about gun issues, which is absurd. The NRA was split a few decades ago on the proper emphasis - people dedicated to responsible gun ownership had DEEP divisions about "the gun ban movement" etc.

And I'm sorry but disagreeing with extremists on gun rights doesn't indicate a lack of understanding. It might indicate disagreement, rationally held.
 
To each his own on that subject, Jesus himself advocated arming oneself for defense should the situation warrant it so I wouldn't say that it is a sin per se to carry a defensive weapon into a church. I personally don't feel comfortable bringing a weapon into a church at this point in time because IMO preparing for even defensive violence goes against the message of love and peace, however, it is something I will concede is not the safest tactical position to hold, then again I have always been a bit of a risk taker.

I detest real violence, especially that violence which results in victimizing others(force superior to the intended target's level to defend). While I love competitive violence like the fighting sports and even sparring with buddies, violence with a component of hatred and a will to injure turns my stomach.

Biblical link please
I know the one you are referring to, i suggest Matthew 26:52
 
Cotton might be "insensitive" and a "monster," but he's got a point: Another mass shooting in a "gun free zone."

NO, NO, NO! This is such a WRONG-HEADED assessment of what led to this horrific act!

Before continuing, I have to make an admission...

For a very brief moment, I, yes even I entertained the though of how if only one member in that Bible Study group had a gun he or she could have stopped this massacre in its tracks. But then I caught myself.

Let me be clear:

IF PEACE LOVING, HONORABLE MEN/WOMEN CANNOT GO INTO A PLACE OF WORSHIP AND FEAR GOD MORE THAN MAN, THEN WE HAVE A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM ON OUR HANDS!

Going as far back as the Vikings, even those Orthodox Catholics whom they pillaged left their weapons outside the church doors. Even cowboys of the old West left their guns at home before going to church. So, IMO, Texas NRA Exec. Cotton is just plain WRONG!

I get the organization's mantra as espoused by NRA Exec. VP, Wayne LaPierre, "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun," but DAMN!!!

It bears repeating:

IF PEACE LOVING, HONORABLE MEN/WOMEN CANNOT GO INTO A PLACE OF WORSHIP AND FEAR GOD MORE THAN MAN, THEN WE HAVE A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM ON OUR HANDS!

As to Cotton's comment: The only person responsible for this tragedy is Dylann Roof. PERIOD!
 
Non-responsive try again. so a guy comes to your church and the metal detector says he has a gun
and you tell him to go home

if he does-he was not going to be a problem to start with

if he is a problem, you are dead and so are many others in the church

good thinking there

Seriously, pokes aside...:golf If we use metal detectors as a first line of defense, at least it identifies the person who could be a potential problem. The second step should be security. It a shame, we as a nation would need this..but worth a try. For public safety regulations, mandate security for all public venues where large groups of people gather and high risk targets. We could use our returning military for those jobs. They are trained, highly skilled peace keepers. We train them well on how to treat civilians where they are guests in other countries. I would rather pay for security out of tax dollars and enjoy a day of shopping at the mall...than arrive at the ready and be on the look out for kooks while shopping.. This seems to be the mindset of those who feel the need to carry openly or concealed.
 
It is truly not that simple unfortunately. To send the armed person home without some form of force to put teeth into that request, you are issuing a request with the hope that the person will comply peacefully, 99% of people will honor that request without incident, another .5% will leave with complaint, but that last half a percentage will be the one to look out for. I have said many times, statistics are useless when you run into the outlier.

Society will always experience a outlier of behavior, but we can at least try something to deter the 1%....we can't save everyone but we are seeing too much now.
 
Luke22:36.

Luke 22:36 has had a number of interpretations.
Knowing that you have not read thru the thread as it was posted a day or 2 ago.
I had edited the original post to include Matthew 26:52
And that one in my opinion is clearer than Luke 22:36.
 
No it is reality that I do not want an increasingly gun centric society. And that involves a hell of a lot more than just counting numbers of guns.

How about you are really willing to compromise the safety of others so you can really feel better. Does that work?
 
I have to say, the gun club is a range basically that offers classes. I took the gun safety classes there and felt safe there. Strict rules while down range and professionals who assist and give helpful advice in a very modern facility. It is also a social club, where wives go as well. No one talks about shooting a person in self defense. No red necks, just cops, ex miltary, a fair amount of teachers, etc. I prefer round targets instead of the human outlines. It is sport for me. I want to target compete one day. LOL. I played darts in bars for years, so this is the next step. :lol: The tactical courses look kind of fun too, because it uses athletics combined with gun skill. My gun is unloaded while in the house, clip out and empty. It is locked up with my golf clubs because it is a tool of sport. This is not "gun nut" ownership. Gun nuts carry openly in malls, restaurants, churches, and Walmart and brag about what they will do if someone breaks into their house with a big grin on their face.

I get the "sport" side, having shot in competitions myself. Most of the time its for fun.
But guns are about much more than that. If someone was breaking into your home to harm you, would you use the gun to protect yourself?
 
Seriously, pokes aside...:golf If we use metal detectors as a first line of defense, at least it identifies the person who could be a potential problem. The second step should be security. It a shame, we as a nation would need this..but worth a try. For public safety regulations, mandate security for all public venues where large groups of people gather and high risk targets. We could use our returning military for those jobs. They are trained, highly skilled peace keepers. We train them well on how to treat civilians where they are guests in other countries. I would rather pay for security out of tax dollars and enjoy a day of shopping at the mall...than arrive at the ready and be on the look out for kooks while shopping.. This seems to be the mindset of those who feel the need to carry openly or concealed.

Those malls had security. Some armed, some not. We know how that turned out.
 
To each his own on that subject, Jesus himself advocated arming oneself for defense should the situation warrant it so I wouldn't say that it is a sin per se to carry a defensive weapon into a church. I personally don't feel comfortable bringing a weapon into a church at this point in time because IMO preparing for even defensive violence goes against the message of love and peace, however, it is something I will concede is not the safest tactical position to hold, then again I have always been a bit of a risk taker.

I detest real violence, especially that violence which results in victimizing others(force superior to the intended target's level to defend). While I love competitive violence like the fighting sports and even sparring with buddies, violence with a component of hatred and a will to injure turns my stomach.

Biblical link please

I know the one you are referring to, i suggest Matthew 26:52

Luke22:36.

Let's put both Bible versus into perspective.

In Matthew 26:52, Christ was essentially saying that anyone who takes up a weapon for vengeance will eventually die from such a hate-filled act. Or in short, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

In Luke 22:36, Christ was instructing his disciples to prepare themselves for the eventual persecution they would soon come to face. And thus, he gave them permission to buy weapons (swords) to defend themselves against the coming aggression IF they chose to do so. And as you know, none did.

LaMidRighter,

I understand what you're trying to do and can certainly empathize with your moral struggle on self defense (see his post #301), but what reference to these Bible verses goes to once again confirm is that man will use specific passages of scripture to suit their own purposes. Unless and until you place such verses in their proper context, you risk leading man down a very dark path.

My advice to you: Guard against false witness, my friend.

EDIT: Ask yourself, were the 9 victims at the AME church being persecuted for their religious belief? If your answer is NO (and if you're honest about why Dylann Roof carried out this terrible, horrific, inexcusable act then the only conclusion you can reach is NO), then it wouldn't have made sense for these church members to conceal carry in a place of worship for any reason whatsoever.
 
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I get the "sport" side, having shot in competitions myself. Most of the time its for fun.
But guns are about much more than that. If someone was breaking into your home to harm you, would you use the gun to protect yourself?

I don't keep the clip loaded or in the gun while not in use. So if the person was armed, I probably would not see it coming anyway. If they were not, I feel I would have a better chance of running or defending myself. It is hard to say, I have never had an instance where I feared anyone. No one can truly know. I would hate to shoot someone unarmed
 
How about you are really willing to compromise the safety of others so you can really feel better. Does that work?

Would you agree that guns in many places easy to acquire, limited checks?

Would you agree that America has a love of guns?

Would you agree that some hard core gun rights types look upon any restriction as anathema

Would you agree that these types have an almost religious fervor for gun rights?

Would that make you feel better?
 
How about you are really willing to compromise the safety of others so you can really feel better. Does that work?

Now all you need to do is show me where I am compromising the safety of others.
 
No one other than a psychopath is going to carry a gun to a bible study meeting at church. I don't care if you are left, right, or totally non-political, other than nutjobs and psychopaths, no one is going to carry a gun to house of God other than a psychopath. Sometimes bad things happen. We cannot prevent every tragedy.


Oh dear. I guess I am a psychopath.


I carry in church, where it is permitted... and frankly whether it is permitted is a factor in whether I attend that church.


(Protip: I'm not a psychopath. I am however aware that churches are not protected by some mystic dome of peace that prevents bad people from targeting them... and just as I am not interested in being at the mercy of thugs and loonies when shopping at Walmart, ditto at church. See Luke 22:36.)
 
I get the "sport" side, having shot in competitions myself. Most of the time its for fun.
But guns are about much more than that. If someone was breaking into your home to harm you, would you use the gun to protect yourself?

Me I would call on Jesus to save me.


look down now






Note - That is the name of my Rottweiler.
 
Or,

3) Sometimes bad things just happen and you cannot prevent every horrible thing that could happen from happening. You could make it legal to carry a gun into every church in American, but legal or not, no one other than a psychopath is going to carry a gun into the a house of God.



Hi bro. 'Sup? :2wave:
 
Because a church is a holy place. Common sense would tell you not to bring a weapon in to God's house.

I'm not anti-gun in any way, but come on... really?



Yes, really. Regularly, even.
 
Oh dear. I guess I am a psychopath.


I carry in church, where it is permitted... and frankly whether it is permitted is a factor in whether I attend that church.


(Protip: I'm not a psychopath. I am however aware that churches are not protected by some mystic dome of peace that prevents bad people from targeting them... and just as I am not interested in being at the mercy of thugs and loonies when shopping at Walmart, ditto at church. See Luke 22:36.)

No, but you are a trained professional (cop, I think I saw you post) and it is natural for a cop to have a protection mindset...cops are never off duty nor do they retire. LOL. Can't really compare to your average Joe or gun nut.
 
You don't care but you're posting about it...?



My fear doesn't have to be rational to affect what a gun toting person does to my experience in church. Since the odds of a mass murder are approximately 0.0000001%, a reasonable choice for the church is to concern themselves with a welcoming and comfortable experience for all of their congregants.



Great, and unless I know you very well, and perhaps even if I do, you'll leave your gun in the car at my house.


OK, there are about 375,000 house fires per year that kill 2,500 per year, injure another 12,000. Extinguishers are cheap and I've NEVER heard of one killing even one person when misused, so the downside of having 100 in your house (besides unsightly) is zero. Guns kill about 30,000 per year. So it's completely different in every possible way than carrying a gun to church to prevent, if all goes perfectly, 1 or 2 shooting per year.

And if you don't need flood insurance don't buy it, but that doesn't pose even a slight risk to anyone, unless you pull it out and inflict a paper cut with the policy, or burn it....

Your logic isn't all that good tonight.



I'm not sure what the point is. Some guy decides to spend $10,000 (or more???) to outfit his car with a NASCAR caliber crash system to keep him safe on his commute can laugh at you for driving your regular car to work by pointing to the 10s of thousand of traffic deaths. Does that make you irrational for NOT outfitting your Lincoln or Audi with the same restraint system Dale Jr. uses at Bristol Motor Speedway?



Hi.

I've been carrying a gun for nearly thirty years.

I've never committed a felony or shot someone unlawfully or accidentally.

I HAVE prevented a couple of attempted crimes by being armed and ready.

My family has always owned and carried guns. Several of my family members have stopped crimes with guns. Some of my neighbors have also.

We have yet to rack up a single suicide or accidental or unlawful shooting.

But we've been damn glad to be armed on many instances.



So... your mish mash of miscompared stats doesn't mean much to me. :D
 
Society will always experience a outlier of behavior, but we can at least try something to deter the 1%....we can't save everyone but we are seeing too much now.
The thing is, those outliers in the statistics won't be deterred without a superior and definite force, that is the sad reality. Most of the less successful attempts at a mass shooting were stopped on site by an armed citizen, the more successful attempts happened where no opposing force was present. I am not by any means condemning a church choosing to be gun free BTW, I cannot state that enough.
 
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