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Thread: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

  1. #21
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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I think there's a strong case for a federal Europe, but I'm not going to even attempt defend the current EU government, given that they are just so incompetent. My only point is that the European Union government would not be okay with letting Greece simply leave, despite all of the problems it is currently causing.



    Regardless of whether or not you support it, it's pretty clear that's what it is.



    I find it hilarious how you think the past Greek governments are the same entity as the Greek people, and that the Greek people should punished for the failures of their government. Well I guess I would find it hilarious if that viewpoint wasn't actually causing huge problems in Greece right now.

    I won't deny that past Greek governments, whether it is PASOK or New Democracy, have been terribly incompetent, but that's why they've been kicked out of office. Blame this on socialism all you want, but Greece has only been governed by a socialist party since January. Greek citizens aren't relying on massive handouts. They're suffering from skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates, and to blame the debt crisis on "laziness" and an inability of people to sustain themselves when so many people are actually suffering through no fault of their own and an inability of past governments to handle money responsibly is not only twisted logic, but frankly offensive.
    Just to correct you.. there is no European or EU government.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    " Austerity "... .


    Lol !!

    So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses, and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed ) , and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

    More loans ?

    Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

    The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.
    You know, don’t you. The EU is one big, man-made, corrupt, anti-democratic disaster and the sooner the whole lot collapses, the better. The best thing the Greek government could do is have a heart to heart talk with its people and try to take the dummy out of their mouths, but that isn’t going to work either and to make matters worse, they’ve just elected a communist as leader. Greece is a basket case and Italy, Ireland, Cyprus, Portugal and Spain aren’t far behind.

  3. #23
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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I think there's a strong case for a federal Europe, but I'm not going to even attempt defend the current EU government, given that they are just so incompetent. My only point is that the European Union government would not be okay with letting Greece simply leave, despite all of the problems it is currently causing.



    Regardless of whether or not you support it, it's pretty clear that's what it is.



    I find it hilarious how you think the past Greek governments are the same entity as the Greek people, and that the Greek people should punished for the failures of their government. Well I guess I would find it hilarious if that viewpoint wasn't actually causing huge problems in Greece right now.

    I won't deny that past Greek governments, whether it is PASOK or New Democracy, have been terribly incompetent, but that's why they've been kicked out of office. Blame this on socialism all you want, but Greece has only been governed by a socialist party since January. Greek citizens aren't relying on massive handouts. They're suffering from skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates, and to blame the debt crisis on "laziness" and an inability of people to sustain themselves when so many people are actually suffering through no fault of their own and an inability of past governments to handle money responsibly is not only twisted logic, but frankly offensive.
    I find your criticisms of " austerity " hilarious !

    As if austerity is a policy meant to grow economies in the first place.

    Austerity, is the inevitable consequence of the engine that drives Socialism ( into the ground )

    Massive deficit spending of other people's money.

    The bill came due for Greece, and instead of being the responsible debtor, they're doing everything they can to welch on their contracts.

    Defaulting on debt is aa socialist tradition apparently.
    " If no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else ? "
    Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Just to correct you.. there is no European or EU government.
    Sorry, the European Commission was the term I was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    I find your criticisms of " austerity " hilarious !

    As if austerity is a policy meant to grow economies in the first place.

    Austerity, is the inevitable consequence of the engine that drives Socialism ( into the ground )

    Massive deficit spending of other people's money.

    The bill came due for Greece, and instead of being the responsible debtor, they're doing everything they can to welch on their contracts.

    Defaulting on debt is aa socialist tradition apparently.
    Pushing Greek citizens into poverty is clearly the wrong solution. They are being punished for the irresponsible actions of their government; there is no moral justification for that.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

  5. #25
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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Sorry, the European Commission was the term I was looking for.
    And that aint exactly correct either The ones that are calling the shots are the Council of Ministers, not the European Commission. The European Commission is nothing but a bunch of glorified bureaucrats.

    Pushing Greek citizens into poverty is clearly the wrong solution. They are being punished for the irresponsible actions of their government; there is no moral justification for that.
    To be fair pushing citizens into poverty is almost the calling card of trickle down economics and policy that has been pushed here... just saying.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Sorry, the European Commission was the term I was looking for.



    Pushing Greek citizens into poverty is clearly the wrong solution. They are being punished for the irresponsible actions of their government; there is no moral justification for that.

    What was the " moral justification " for thd Greek Government distributing billions in worthless bonds throughout European banks ?

    Bailing out Socialist is the wrong policy, clearly.

    Primarily because the bailouts would never stop and the corruption and the ideology that sunk Greece would bring down Nations who followed the rules.

    There's a lesson to be learned here that Greek population clearly missed.
    " If no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else ? "
    Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    What was the " moral justification " for thd Greek Government distributing billions in worthless bonds throughout European banks ?

    Bailing out Socialist is the wrong policy, clearly.

    Primarily because the bailouts would never stop and the corruption and the ideology that sunk Greece would bring down Nations who followed the rules.

    There's a lesson to be learned here that Greek population clearly missed.
    Because the Greek working class was clearly directly involved in distributing billions in bonds...
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

  8. #28
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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    It is all starting to unravel and if Greece leave I predict it will start an exodus with countries like Ireland, Italy, Spain looking to follow them. We have a big vote ( hopefully) in the next couple of years and right now I dont see any reason why Britain should stay on this sinking ship.
    Even if Greece leaves, which is far from assured even if it defaults, I don't think that outcome will produce an exodus of countries from the EU. The EU has been maintained and deepened economically and politically. I don't think one should underestimate the benefits of economic and labor market integration, not to mention the historical basis that drove that integration. The EU is not a flimsy arrangement. It has survived much and its core countries remain deeply committed to its preservation.

    A Greece default could lead to a scenario where Greece drops the Euro but remains within the EU. Recent opinion polls show Greeks do not want their country to leave the EU and many would prefer to retain the Euro.

    Finally, I suspect that in the wake of Greek situation, whether or not it defaults, Europe will be more cautious about the entry of new states. For example, Ukraine, which appears poised to write-down its own debts, will likely find itself locked out of full membership for the foreseeable future.

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