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Thread: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

  1. #11
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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    So what is your position on Greece? And your opinion on them being able to negotiate a stay in the EU/Euro or having to exit?
    It has always been in the cards that Greece was to get some sort of debt forgiveness. Ever since the debt was moved from the banks to the sovereign states, then this has been the ultimate goal. Now debt forgiveness is the carrot that is being used to make sure that Greece goes through with the structural reforms that are needed to make the state of Greece sustainable in the future.

    Now the problem is that the IMF and some what the EU have demanded a lot of the Greeks and especially demanded certain things that is actually bad for the Greek people and country. For example the privatisation of public companies. The IMF wants this done now and as fast as possible. Problem is that the deals done are cheating the Greek people out of billions. Why should Greece sell public companies at 10 cents on the euro? Why not get as much as possible? That is one of the sticking points with the new Greek government. Then there is more cuts in pensions. At the moment you can barely live off a state pension in Greece, and they expect more cuts? Come on. Also none of the plans that the IMF and EU want for Greece include growth plans. Why is that? The budget has a primary surplus. It is time to grow the economy, but you cant do that by constantly cutting the public sector and adding new regulation/taxes.

    Now on the flip side, I fully understand that Greece needs to keep going on with the reforms. I for one, would love to see a Scandinavia like tax system (not rates) put in place. That would do wonders for any country. This takes time and energy to implement, but once done the amount of fraud falls dramatically.

    So at some point the EU has to give it self, while the Greeks have to do it as well. I suspect both sides are willing, but I also suspect that the main problem child is the IMF.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    IS THE euro zone at a turning-point? Policymakers, unsurprisingly, would have you believe so. They point to faster-than-expected growth in the fourth quarter of 2014: the euro zone as a whole grew by 0.3% in the quarter, and its biggest economy, Germany, expanded by 0.7%. The European Commission is forecasting growth in 2015 of 1.5%, which would be the euro area's best outcome since 2011 when it grew by 1.6%.

    Still, it's hard to get excited. France and Italy, the zone's second- and third-largest economies, stagnated in the final quarter of the year. Greece's return to the headlines has the potential to unsettle markets. And fears grow that the 19-member currency club may fall into deflation: prices are falling in Germany, France and Spain. The ECB has adopted measures to boost prices and growth—most notably by agreeing to a controversial programme of quantitative easing—but it did so for a reason.

    European economy guide: Taking Europe

    deflation can kill an economy.....

    and Germany alone cant hold up the region
    Well we have had deflation and the economy aint dead yet. This is an old economic book myth that has been deflated it self as of late. Short terms of deflation is actually beneficiary in many aspects, where as continuous deflation is a problem... up to a point.

    Yes France and Italy are stagnating.. but guess what, they always are. Spain is growing by the most in Europe, funny how that is not mentioned. Portugal and Ireland are growing as well last time I checked. The Euro is low, which is great because exports are booming. The markets are up, the bond rates until recently (thanks to the Greek situation) have been low.. still are but not as low like they were a month or so ago. The Eurozone aint dead or dying, it is moving forward despite the Greek doomsaying and Anglo-American talking heads and their doom and gloom.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    LUXEMBOURG (AP) — Europe was scrambling Friday to pick up the pieces after another failed meeting over Greece's bailout that reinforced fears that the country was heading for bankruptcy and a possible euro exit.
    I would think they would be pleased to get rid of Greece.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    If the European Union would stop pushing austerity on Greece it would eliminate the need for a Grexit in the first place. I doubt that Greece will actually choose to leave the EU though. Tsipras was elected on an anti-austerity platform, not an anti-EU platform, and I doubt that he wants to oversee the country actually leave the union.

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I would think they would be pleased to get rid of Greece.
    No they would not. The European Union is being held together by very weak threads, and if Greece is allowed to leave, it sets a precedent that other countries can as well, and significantly weakens the case for the existence of the EU in the first place.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Monday is crunch day. The US/GB will have pressured for a deal to be made to prevent Greece moving toward Russia and the East politically.
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    and if Greece is allowed to leave, it sets a precedent that other countries can as well, and significantly weakens the case for the existence of the EU in the first place.
    I didn't realize there was a reasonable case for the existence of the EU.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    If the European Union would stop pushing austerity on Greece it would eliminate the need for a Grexit in the first place. I doubt that Greece will actually choose to leave the EU though. Tsipras was elected on an anti-austerity platform, not an anti-EU platform, and I doubt that he wants to oversee the country actually leave the union.



    No they would not. The European Union is being held together by very weak threads, and if Greece is allowed to leave, it sets a precedent that other countries can as well, and significantly weakens the case for the existence of the EU in the first place.
    " Austerity "... .


    Lol !!

    So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses, and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed ) , and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

    More loans ?

    Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

    The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Monday is going to be a real mess in Greece.
    A Greecey mess.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I didn't realize there was a reasonable case for the existence of the EU.
    I think there's a strong case for a federal Europe, but I'm not going to even attempt defend the current EU government, given that they are just so incompetent. My only point is that the European Union government would not be okay with letting Greece simply leave, despite all of the problems it is currently causing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    " Austerity "... .


    Lol !!
    Regardless of whether or not you support it, it's pretty clear that's what it is.

    So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses, and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed ) , and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

    More loans ?

    Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

    The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.
    I find it hilarious how you think the past Greek governments are the same entity as the Greek people, and that the Greek people should punished for the failures of their government. Well I guess I would find it hilarious if that viewpoint wasn't actually causing huge problems in Greece right now.

    I won't deny that past Greek governments, whether it is PASOK or New Democracy, have been terribly incompetent, but that's why they've been kicked out of office. Blame this on socialism all you want, but Greece has only been governed by a socialist party since January. Greek citizens aren't relying on massive handouts. They're suffering from skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates, and to blame the debt crisis on "laziness" and an inability of people to sustain themselves when so many people are actually suffering through no fault of their own and an inability of past governments to handle money responsibly is not only twisted logic, but frankly offensive.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    Re: Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    " Austerity "... .


    Lol !!

    So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses,
    You need your definitions right. Greece entered the EEC in 1981. They did not lie or enter the EEC under false pretences. The EEC became the EU and hence Greece could not enter the Union under false pretences. Now entering the Eurozone is another matter and here there are unconfirmed reports that they did "cook the books" a bit to enter and then a few years later started to hide massive debts and deficits with the help of American banks.. yes the usual suspects.

    and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed )
    To be fair, Germany has been violating those limitations as well. And they are not limitations per say but guidelines.

    and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?
    They were not worthless per say

    Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.
    this is where you go into full partisan bull**** mode. There does not exist such a thing as a "socialist mindset". Most of the corrupt actions were done under a conservative lead government. Yes the socialists were involved too. And there was no "massive handouts", that is a bull**** myth pushed by the Anglo-American talking heads who cant admit that their whole economic foundation of trickle down economics is based on a lie and bull****. Relative to other economies in Europe, the Greek public sector was relatively small. The Greek problem has always been collecting taxes, something the Anglo-American talking heads refuse to admit because they hate taxes.

    The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.
    More partisan bull**** that is not based in reality. You do realize that when Greece was bailed out it was conservative governments in Europe that did it right?
    PeteEU

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