Page 61 of 116 FirstFirst ... 1151596061626371111 ... LastLast
Results 601 to 610 of 1152

Thread: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

  1. #601
    Sage
    EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Grapeview, Washington
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    6,242

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yeah, the same kind of arguments was once made against seatbelt laws, too.
    No they weren't, and besides the real reason for seat belt laws was to provide an unimpeachable pretext for policeman to stop people who weren't doing anything wrong I mean a police officers can't possibly be expected to really know if those black teenagers in the Chevy Impala cruising around the former East Bremerton K-mart really were wearing seatbelts, better pull them over and check, and once he does that, maybe he'll smell marijuana and open their bags. but he had probable cause to stop them because he reasonably believed they weren't belted. , big money from the insurance lobby didn't hurt either.


    Hm, let me see here - you're saying that it's equally likely that LESS people would die if the shooter has, say, a 30-round extended mag for his pistol than if he 'only' has a 12-round mag? What you need to get, guy, is that we are not talking about what would or would not have happened in one particular instance. We are talking about LIKELIHOODS...and someone with a much larger magazine is much more likely to be able to fire his weapon more times before he needs to reload...and this means that he is MORE likely to kill MORE people. LIKELIHOODS, guy. No one knows what would or would not happen in one particular instance...but when we look at statistical LIKELIHOODS, the picture is much more easily understood.
    ok so what's your legal definition of "Extended"



    Oh - NOW you want to talk statistical likelihoods, hm? Thing about statistics is, it takes more than just a glance at the numbers before one can make a judgement using those numbers. How was the training conducted? What were the requirements for that training? Was it required before one purchased a new class of firearm? Or was it a one-time training that covered everything and nobody needs the training a second time? And was the training really required, was it mandatory in nature? Or was it just offered to those who wanted it, since such people are more likely to be safe gun owners anyway?
    but in theory, every state with mandatory training should have fewer accidents then ANY state that does not, if that rule is not true, then mandatory training has no justification because the number of accidents are dependent on other factors.
    I really suggest you take some courses in stats, that you can learn how easy it is for statistics to be flawed...and how incredibly accurate they can be when properly gathered.
    we both live near the same town, lets you and I audit the OC course in stats together.


    There very much is a distinction between the rifles you listed above and the higher-end sniper rifles that the military uses today. The M24 system has an effective firing range that is three times that of the M1 Garand.
    ah, so you are asking to ban regular bolt action rifles firing standard hunting cartridges! BINGO! please write a sample statute that bans the M-24 and not the Remington 700, its parent platform. for that matter, find me a single person murdered with an M-24. really M-24 IS an R700, M-24 is just a service designation. and any rifle made for Olympics competition will outshoot the M-24.

    And again, I believe you'll find that just about ALL first-world democracies - including Switzerland and Israel - already do have laws with all the requirements I listed previously.
    I don't live in either Switzerland or Israel, tell you what, I'll compromise and agree to the Czech gun laws plus open carry. you get your mandatory training and certification from a shrink to get a gun license plus registration, i get my ability to carry and own any hardware I like...... oh and make it federal with strict federal preemption. sounds like a fair trade to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
    "Be careful of averages, the average person has one breast and one testicle"
    -Dixy Lee Ray

  2. #602
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    11-30-16 @ 02:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    14,748

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    And that sounds like a bunch of bigotry to me. You get nowhere in dealing with racism when you paint an entire region of your country and everyone who lives there as ingrained with, understanding, and tolerant of racism.
    Tell you what. Go spend around twenty years down there - especially in the local watering holes - and then get back to us and try to keep the same opinion.

    Are all Southern conservatives racist? No. But here's the key: most TOLERATE the racism in their fellows. Not only that, but even among the strongest racists down there, most will tell you that they are NOT racist - and they'd pass a lie-detector test while doing so. Why? Because they don't recognize that they themselves are racist. They only see themselves as being 'realist', knowing how things really are: "It's nothing personal against this or that black person, you see - it's just the way blacks are."

    Most of the conservatives down there would risk their lives in a heartbeat to save a black man in danger. Most of them would share their food with that black man's family if they were going hungry (hence the honorable tradition of "Southern Hospitality"). But as soon as the blacks are out of earshot, out come all the old racist assumptions and stereotypes. These are what I refer to as the "good racists" - they are well-meaning, they mean no direct harm to the blacks or other minorities or to Muslims or whatever...but once all the suspected PC-police are out of earshot, here come the assumptions and stereotypes once more...

    ...and this translates into choices inside the voting booth too. This is how almost everyone I knew down there was and is to this day. It's not plastered in some kind of official policy statement - these are simple societal facts, unwritten rules that are understood by almost everyone who lives there.

    Guy, you can't tell me this isn't the way it is - I've lived it. I know it better than almost anyone else out there.

    It is changing. Slowly, glacially, but it is changing, thanks to the ubiquitous media, the movies, the courts, and the internet. The youth of the South are much less likely to be racist than their forebearers...but so many still are, and so will their children be. The South will be this nation's last bastion of racism long after you and I are laid to rest, but the change is happening, if ever so very slowly.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #603
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    11-30-16 @ 02:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    14,748

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I only addressed what you wrote. you certainly weren't addressing racism and politics in the post i quoted.
    Really? Here was my post:

    I think what you might be missing is the fact that racism and political beliefs are not mutually exclusive. Try living down in the Deep South sometime and you'll see what we mean. Or you could just re-read about the opposition against the Civil Rights Act in general and segregation in particular in the Deep South.

    What I'm getting at is that it's very, very difficult for someone who hasn't lived there to really understand just how deeply the racism is ingrained in Southern society...where among most whites there, racism is understood and tolerated...and IMO among most whites there aged 40 and over, accepted and even expected...

    ...and this does play very much into their politics
    .

    That's just the way it is in the Deep South.


    Sooo...how exactly was I NOT addressing racism and politics in the post you quoted, hm?

    Guy, you were trying to reply to several different posts at the same time and you got them mixed up. That's a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time. I've done it too, more times than I can count - and I have no problem with apologizing when I do so.

    Question is, are you ready to own up to a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time and is easily forgiven? Or are you going to be one of those who insist on never admitting error no matter how glaringly obvious the error is?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #604
    Sage
    EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Grapeview, Washington
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    6,242

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Really? Here was my post:

    I think what you might be missing is the fact that racism and political beliefs are not mutually exclusive. Try living down in the Deep South sometime and you'll see what we mean. Or you could just re-read about the opposition against the Civil Rights Act in general and segregation in particular in the Deep South.

    What I'm getting at is that it's very, very difficult for someone who hasn't lived there to really understand just how deeply the racism is ingrained in Southern society...where among most whites there, racism is understood and tolerated...and IMO among most whites there aged 40 and over, accepted and even expected...

    ...and this does play very much into their politics
    .

    That's just the way it is in the Deep South.


    Sooo...how exactly was I NOT addressing racism and politics in the post you quoted, hm?

    Guy, you were trying to reply to several different posts at the same time and you got them mixed up. That's a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time. I've done it too, more times than I can count - and I have no problem with apologizing when I do so.

    Question is, are you ready to own up to a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time and is easily forgiven? Or are you going to be one of those who insist on never admitting error no matter how glaringly obvious the error is?
    Actually yes, I will own up to quoting the wrong post and entering a different conversation
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
    "Be careful of averages, the average person has one breast and one testicle"
    -Dixy Lee Ray

  5. #605
    Professor
    HowardBThiname's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    America's Heartland
    Last Seen
    08-19-16 @ 02:47 PM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,955

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Folks, this guy has said he "Wanted to start a civil war". A race war between blacks and whites.


    Now I think he's drastically over-estimating his own importance and the impact of his heinous action... but if we let it, this incident could be yet another brick in the wall separating us by race.



    Let's not let that happen. Let's come together and condemn this as an act of senseless and abhorrent violence and hate by a evil person whose actions are NOT representative of white South Carolinians or white Americans in general.




    Don't let him win. Don't let this drive us further apart in this time when we're already experiencing more racial tensions than we have in a decade. Let's stand together and not let one hateful young man drive yet another wedge between us.


    I live in rural SC. Everywhere I've been today, no one is talking about anything else. Everyone says it was horrible. I've not heard one person, not even the scruffiest redneck, say anything affirmative about what this young hater did.

    In the military, one of the greatest insults is to deliberately about-face and turn your back on someone, signifying they don't matter. Let's turn out backs on this hateful person and not give him the satisfaction of being a media star.


    Let's have our time of mourning and grief for those we've lost, but let's not give this hateful little **** any more attention.
    This is a very good post.

    People like this young man may be intent on starting a race war - but we don't have to be willing participants.
    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  6. #606
    Sage
    DA60's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,548

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    This is NOT a racist attack.

    This is a mad man using race as an excuse for his problems.

    He could have used women, gay men, Muslims, Jews, Christians or just left handed people as targets..but he chose 'blacks'.

    As usual, the pathetic American mass media will focus on the 'race' angle and try and make more out of this then there is.


    People...America will NEVER get past the massive amount of racism within her borders until her citizens STOP focusing on race and starts focusing on people.

    The problem with American racism is not that there are not enough social programs for a certain race, or that people do not talk about racism enough...it is the exact opposite.

    There should be zero social programs that focus on the melanin content of people's skins and people should stop looking at each other as belonging to any race but the human race.

    Jeez, no western country - and I mean NO western country - talks about 'race' more then Americans. Most Americans just won't shut up about it.

    Having lived in both America and Canada, the difference is staggering. There is racism in Canada, but it is a tiny fraction - even on a per capita basis - then in America. You watch Canadian news and you will be waiting a LONG time for them to refer to a 'black' Canadian as anything more then 'a Canadian' (unless the story directly involved 'race'). In America? More times then not, they call the same person 'a black American' - even if the story has NOTHING to do with 'race'.
    Why even mention the color of his skin? Because it is a very nasty habit that Americans have gotten into - and they do not even realize it in most cases.

    Stop focusing on it and it will eventually fade.

    Look at people as nothing but people with different amounts of melanin content as opposed to entirely different 'races' based on little more then skin color.
    'What kind of sick and twisted toy factory is this?'
    'We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away.'
    "Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool."

  7. #607
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    11-30-16 @ 02:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    14,748

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    No they weren't, and besides the real reason for seat belt laws was to provide an unimpeachable pretext for policeman to stop people who weren't doing anything wrong I mean a police officers can't possibly be expected to really know if those black teenagers in the Chevy Impala cruising around the former East Bremerton K-mart really were wearing seatbelts, better pull them over and check, and once he does that, maybe he'll smell marijuana and open their bags. but he had probable cause to stop them because he reasonably believed they weren't belted. , big money from the insurance lobby didn't hurt either.
    What's troubling is that it appears you actually believe what you wrote above. FYI, one of my jobs in my past life was teaching traffic safety to kids who were young, dumb, and full of - ahem - youthful enthusiasms. I have heard just about every argument against seat belts that's ever been made...and yours, sir, ain't one of them.

    ok so what's your legal definition of "Extended"
    Any mag that contains more rounds than what was originally designed for normal use by the firearm. YES, there's quibbles and whines there: "But what if it's even ONE more???" It's sorta like cops pulling you over for a speed limit violation. YES, they can pull you over for going one freaking mile over the limit...but they really don't start to care until it gets at least five miles over the limit. Same principle applies here.

    but in theory, every state with mandatory training should have fewer accidents then ANY state that does not, if that rule is not true, then mandatory training has no justification because the number of accidents are dependent on other factors.
    NO, guy - go back and read what I posted - there's way too many variables to consider than to just say, "Well, gee, Gomer, the state has training so it oughta be safer, y'know?"

    we both live near the same town, lets you and I audit the OC course in stats together.
    I already took stats from Hawaii-Pacific - I've got the benefit of that education already, and I don't need to audit the same course again. But it appears it would do you a lot of good.

    ah, so you are asking to ban regular bolt action rifles firing standard hunting cartridges! BINGO! please write a sample statute that bans the M-24 and not the Remington 700, its parent platform. for that matter, find me a single person murdered with an M-24. really M-24 IS an R700, M-24 is just a service designation. and any rifle made for Olympics competition will outshoot the M-24.
    You know why I'm including military-grade sniper rifles? Do you remember the societal upheaval the entire nation went through after JFK was assassinated? I'm guessing you don't. The point is, that's the power of one round fired from one gun. Same thing went for the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand - that was just with a pistol, IIRC..and ten million soldiers (and uncounted millions more civilians) died as a result.

    YES, Oswald used what's easily available today, something that's quite obsolete to our military...and the assassin of the archduke used something that barely qualifies as a Saturday-night special. But in the modern day, the Secret Service and local law enforcements are often able to shut down most locations with a view of wherever the president will be vulnerable for maybe half-mile radius, maybe more, as situations dictate. But could they shut down everything up to 1500 meters, the range of the M24? Maybe, maybe not...but is your personal want to buy such a sniper rifle more precious than protecting the nation from what happens when a president is assassinated?

    I don't live in either Switzerland or Israel, tell you what, I'll compromise and agree to the Czech gun laws plus open carry. you get your mandatory training and certification from a shrink to get a gun license plus registration, i get my ability to carry and own any hardware I like...... oh and make it federal with strict federal preemption. sounds like a fair trade to me.
    Their requirements are easily found online...as are their homicide rates.

    And it looks like you are approaching this as a game. I suggest you go find some victims' families and spend some time with them and then see if it's as laughable as you seem to think right now.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #608
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:00 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    73,219

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Only in the minds of liberals with a need to attack conservatives are the actions and statements of the alleged killer here fantasized as political. We could just as easily discuss the possibility that young men who have their hair cut using cereal bowls as a guide are prone to mass murder.

    His comments, in my view, were those of a white supremacist who seemed to have grievances against black people, grievances personal to him. Where's the political agenda that he was advancing in what he did and what is known at this time?
    Racism and white supremacy are indeed extremist views. His political agenda - based on photo's and reported comments he made - was the denial of power to minorities he hated via their destruction and death. We seem to have some glaring examples of just that sort of tactic throughout history by other fanatic political extremists.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #609
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    11-30-16 @ 02:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    14,748

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    This is NOT a racist attack.

    This is a mad man using race as an excuse for his problems.

    He could have used women, gay men, Muslims, Jews, Christians or just left handed people as targets..but he chose 'blacks'.

    As usual, the pathetic American mass media will focus on the 'race' angle and try and make more out of this then there is.


    People...America will NEVER get past the massive amount of racism within her borders until her citizens STOP focusing on race and starts focusing on people.

    The problem with American racism is not that there are not enough social programs for a certain race, or that people do not talk about racism enough...it is the exact opposite.

    There should be zero social programs that focus on the melanin content of people's skins and people should stop looking at each other as belonging to any race but the human race.

    Jeez, no western country - and I mean NO western country - talks about 'race' more then Americans. Most Americans just won't shut up about it.
    Ah. It's the old "pretend it's not there and it will go away all by itself" defense. Pray tell us, how's that worked out for, say, women in the workplace since we never passed the Equal Rights Amendment, since even now women still make only 77% of what men do for working the same job, hm?

    Guy, race wasn't an issue in Canada because Canada - along with the rest of the British Empire - outlawed slavery long before the Confederacy fought a war to defend their 'right' to own slaves. If you were to travel much of the rest of the world, there's lots of racism everywhere. I remember a sign on a door to a bar in Pattaya, Thailand: "No Arabs or Blacks allowed".

    But when it comes to Europe, they were much more progressive than America when it came to race. Before our troops landed in WWI, the French officer corps was told to expect racism among our troops, that things like racial segregation was normal to Americans. America didn't even pass the 1964 Civil Rights Act until after significantly more than a century had passed since England and France had done the same.

    In other words, race is a problem here in American NOT because we keep paying attention to it, but because it HAS been a problem in America FAR longer than it has been in the rest of the developed world. It's not the fault of people talking about it - it's the fault of American society having allowed racism to be a NORMAL part of American life for far longer than in the rest of the developed world.

    It's getting better, slowly, surely, it's getting better - but we've still got a long way to go. And we will make ZERO progress by ignoring it and hoping it will go away.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #610
    Sage
    EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Grapeview, Washington
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    6,242

    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    What's troubling is that it appears you actually believe what you wrote above. FYI, one of my jobs in my past life was teaching traffic safety to kids who were young, dumb, and full of - ahem - youthful enthusiasms. I have heard just about every argument against seat belts that's ever been made...and yours, sir, ain't one of them.



    Any mag that contains more rounds than what was originally designed for normal use by the firearm. YES, there's quibbles and whines there: "But what if it's even ONE more???" It's sorta like cops pulling you over for a speed limit violation. YES, they can pull you over for going one freaking mile over the limit...but they really don't start to care until it gets at least five miles over the limit. Same principle applies here.



    NO, guy - go back and read what I posted - there's way too many variables to consider than to just say, "Well, gee, Gomer, the state has training so it oughta be safer, y'know?"



    I already took stats from Hawaii-Pacific - I've got the benefit of that education already, and I don't need to audit the same course again. But it appears it would do you a lot of good.



    You know why I'm including military-grade sniper rifles? Do you remember the societal upheaval the entire nation went through after JFK was assassinated? I'm guessing you don't. The point is, that's the power of one round fired from one gun. Same thing went for the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand - that was just with a pistol, IIRC..and ten million soldiers (and uncounted millions more civilians) died as a result.

    YES, Oswald used what's easily available today, something that's quite obsolete to our military...and the assassin of the archduke used something that barely qualifies as a Saturday-night special. But in the modern day, the Secret Service and local law enforcements are often able to shut down most locations with a view of wherever the president will be vulnerable for maybe half-mile radius, maybe more, as situations dictate. But could they shut down everything up to 1500 meters, the range of the M24? Maybe, maybe not...but is your personal want to buy such a sniper rifle more precious than protecting the nation from what happens when a president is assassinated?



    Their requirements are easily found online...as are their homicide rates.

    And it looks like you are approaching this as a game. I suggest you go find some victims' families and spend some time with them and then see if it's as laughable as you seem to think right now.
    Well actually you should write legislation for gun control groups, any law written as you're proposing would be struck down as unconstitutionally vague.

    Game? I just offered a compromise measure to your more extreme ideas, from a country with among the lowest homicode rates in the world. See you wonder why it's rare any gun legislation gets passed, this is exhibit A.

    However I think I made my point, you're now suggesting banning ordinary rifles while terming them "sniper rifles" because the M-24 is only a hunting rifle with a bipod and lightened trigger. You can't possibly ban that without banning the parent rifle, not in any way that won't get tossed void for vagueness
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
    "Be careful of averages, the average person has one breast and one testicle"
    -Dixy Lee Ray

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •