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Thread: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Puigb View Post
    Well hell, even white nationalists can be economically "leftists".

    That doesn't necessarily make then "leftists" groups though. Socially, they lean to the right, and ironically have a lot in common with black nationalists.
    Yes, white nationalists can be economic leftists, but historically, nearly all white nationalists have held right wing economic views. The Black Panthers, however, had leftist economic views. As for black and white nationalists sharing racially exclusionary views, I agree with you.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Yes, white nationalists can be economic leftists, but historically, nearly all white nationalists have held right wing economic views. The Black Panthers, however, had leftist economic views. As for black and white nationalists sharing racially exclusionary views, I agree with you.
    A lot of those "Nationalist Socialists" in Europe are just that...socialists (economically). That's my point with regards to the new black panthers. Just because they may have left leaning economic views doesn't necessarily make them "leftists groups". Socially, they have far more in common with your average right winger than your average left winger.
    Last edited by Puigb; 06-19-15 at 12:09 AM.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Have you ever read the Turner Diaries Hatuey? I read it years ago after attending a seminar on extremist groups. It was written by "andy McDonald" a pen name for William Pierce of the National Alliance. it is so over the top anti black and anti semitic, I, and others who read it, thought it was written by someone Jewish to make the anti semitic/anti black racist right look even more stupid than they are. its that over the top. I guess to inbred imbeciles, it might have its intended impact but everyone I know who has read it, said the same thing I did.

    If you want a real laugh, read up on "the Midwest Bank Robbers" Langan and Guthrie. Friends of mine prosecuted Langan (Guthrie hung himself in the Boone County jail-used by the SDOH DOJ for holding area) Langan, a racist white supremacist was also a drag queen at night and his defense in trial was that if his aryan brotherhood gang members found out he went out in miniskirts and fishnets, they'd kill him and that caused him mental distress

    the white supremacist movement is made up of morons, losers, and people with serious mental issues. they are the best proof against their own theory of supremacy
    I've heard of it and read a few synopses on it. Maybe I read it but I can't completely remember if this was the same book I read a few years ago with a similar subject matter. I'm going to the islands next week so I'll check to see if I have a hard copy of it.

    Anyways, what I do know is that there is no need to try and find other reasons and try to peg other people along with him. The kid was probably fed a whole bunch of crazy **** by folks on the internet and he believes he'll be a hero to white children everywhere. He wouldn't be the first. Muslim extremists do it. They're not insane in any sense of the word, they're just zealots.

    Their goals - as unrealistic as they might be - are based on structured belief systems that blame a particular group for something. The Nazis did it, ISIS is doing it, the Bolsheviks did it, the Hutus did it. There is no sign of insanity, it's just a human being doing at the microscopic level what groups have done on a larger scale. Lumping him with people who have mental illnesses is nothing but a copout.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    those laws are all in place. the shooter in this case reloaded 5 times-are you suggesting the idiotic magazine limits some want would have made a difference

    every time we have a shooting like this, the gun banners complain about guns and never ever can set forth what would have actually prevented this that is realistic
    We just can't do anything! Who knows what solutions could be?

    http://www.theonion.com/article/no-w...ere-this-36131
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    None of which will have any significant impact on determined criminals and crazies.

    I'm an ex-cop. I've known felons (already barred from buying or possessing firearms) re-arm themselves within 24 hours after leaving prison.

    300 million guns... many of them never had any paperwork on them to start with. Nothing short of mass house to house searches with gun-sniffing dogs is going to really get guns out of the hands of criminals, and the American people won't tolerate that level of draconian policing.
    I think you're just falling into binary thinking. Some felons get guns despite formidable legal barriers, therefore legal barriers are useless. Getting all guns out of criminal hands would require house to house searches, which would be too oppressive, therefore we shouldn't do anything to get guns out of the hands of criminals... Those deductions don't make sense logically, they're just error introduced by trying to reduce things to simplistic binary propositions.

    Again, it is about percentages. The question isn't "does measure X solve the problem?" it is "what percentage of the problem would measure X solve?" Anything that makes it harder for a potential shooter to get a gun reduces the incidence of murder. Maybe a given measure only reduces that incidence a very small amount and imposes a significant hardship on legitimate gun ownership and maybe another measure would reduce it by a more significant percentage and impose a smaller hardship. You need to be thinking about it on those kinds of terms, not trying to grapple with a complicated topic with the blunt tools of simplistic, conclusory, binary statements.

    For example, say that the measure we're considering is a regulation requiring gun owners to keep their guns locked up when they're not home. Would that stop all gun murders? Of course not. Some murders are committed by the gun owner, so locking it up when they're not around would be irrelevant. Some people would ignore the law and leave their guns unlocked. Some shooters who would otherwise have taken an unlocked gun will find a gun elsewhere. But, it is equally impossible that it would not reduce the incidence at all. Some people would lock up their guns, which would mean that some shooters wouldn't be able to get those guns, and some of those potential shooters would be unable to find a different gun at least until they cooled down. The answer to the question of how effective that measure would be can't possibly be either 0% or 100%, so answers in the binary form you're giving can't possibly be correct.
    Last edited by tuhaybey; 06-19-15 at 12:23 AM.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Lefist terror groups such as the Black Panthers and SLA were willing to harm people.

    The main difference is that leftist economics is a fundamentally flawed system. As a result, there is very little interest in leftist economic systems and the hard core leftist extremists cannot replace themselves. Most are now 60 plus years old and there are very few new Black Panthers and SLA types willing to continue the "struggle".

    Meanwhile, right wing economics is not a failed system and there are many people interested in right wing economic theories. a small number turn to extremist groups. Right wing extremists can replace themselves- but only to degree (once there were tens of thousands of hard core KKK types. Today, there are probably only several hundred truly committed members). Thus, as there are more right wing terrorists out there, there is more right wing violence against individuals.
    You had to go back 40 or 50 years to find one or two? Were you even alive then?

    The CNN article said there were 34 killings by right wing extremists since 9/11 and zero by left wing extremists.....

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064732556

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    You had to go back 40 or 50 years to find one or two? Were you even alive then?

    The CNN article said there were 34 killings by right wing extremists since 9/11 and zero by left wing extremists.....

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064732556
    Slate counts 60 since 1995.

    Not including, of course, the 168 killed by McVeigh.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...ince_1995.html
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post

    For example, say that the measure we're considering is a regulation requiring gun owners to keep their guns locked up when they're not home. Would that stop all gun murders? Of course not. Some murders are committed by the gun owner, so locking it up when they're not around would be irrelevant. Some people would ignore the law and leave their guns unlocked. Some shooters who would otherwise have taken an unlocked gun will find a gun elsewhere. But, it is equally impossible that it would not reduce the incidence at all. Some people would lock up their guns, which would mean that some shooters wouldn't be able to get those guns, and some of those potential shooters would be unable to find a different gun at least until they cooled down. The answer to the question of how effective that measure would be can't possibly be either 0% or 100%, so answers in the binary form you're giving can't possibly be correct.
    this one sentence here shows you're not talking something you know of.

    shooters like this do not "snap" and go kill someone spur of the moment, hell being accepted and allowed to pray with the victims for an hour didn't cool him down, you'd think a rational person would come in, be accepted in the prayer circle and go "hey you know those stormfront guys are full of it, these people are ok" but that's not what happened.

    you cannot "cool down" a person like this, except by getting them into professional help. preferable inpatient.

    gun laws are a dead end, why? because nearly all of these mass shooters have the same profile, and yes Europe has strong gun laws, they also have universal health care and these people get treated before they kill somebody. every one of these mass shooters was on someones radar as being a nutburger, and parents, relatives, authorities, etc didn't take the signs seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    All I am asking is the questions so the subject can be discussed.

    I would say that when a person kills nine persons and makes statements like those attributed to the alleged killer - those are strong warning signs pointing to political grievances as at least part of the motivation.
    Only in the minds of liberals with a need to attack conservatives are the actions and statements of the alleged killer here fantasized as political. We could just as easily discuss the possibility that young men who have their hair cut using cereal bowls as a guide are prone to mass murder.

    His comments, in my view, were those of a white supremacist who seemed to have grievances against black people, grievances personal to him. Where's the political agenda that he was advancing in what he did and what is known at this time?
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by WSUwarrior View Post
    We already have effective gun control. What Democrats want is draconian gun control. Banning "that thing that goes up"? What the hell will that do? Little scumbag reloaded 5 damn times....what would the stupid mag capacity limits have done there? NOTHING! The FBI failed to name a SINGLE gun law that had a discernible effect on lowering crime. NOT ONE. So what makes you think that MORE laws would even do anything, except annoy the law abiding?

    Arresting criminals and then the criminal justice system locking them away for a couple decades or longer is the best gun control. Not some stupid law that sounds good but doesnt work.
    You can't call it "effective gun control" when there's more guns than people. You can't call it "effective gun control" when the most common reaction to "only" one or two people getting shot on the street is a yawn.

    As I stated in my post, there is NO instance where effective gun control in a democracy brought about tyranny, and there is NO instance where lack of gun control brought about that "polite society". Such things are only in your fantasies, because in REAL LIFE, effective gun control brings about MORE peaceful societies, where people don't have to be afraid to walk down the street at night. In REAL LIFE, a glaring lack of gun control results in more violent societies - always has, alway will.

    So you have a choice - you can choose to believe the fantasies fed you by the right-wing echo chamber...or you can choose to believe what has actually happened in democracies with effective gun control and in nations without effective gun control.

    Try basing your beliefs on real-world data - with a realization that people are people are people all over the world - and you'll find something completely different than what the gun-manufacturing-industry spokespeople at the NRA would have you believe.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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