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Thread: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

  1. #561
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    There is no law that we can know for a fact would have prevented this specific shooting. That just isn't how that works. A good gun control law would be one that would reduce the frequency of shootings, not render a specific shooting impossible. Maybe the best possible gun control law would reduce these things 10% or maybe a collection of 20 different gun control laws would each reduce the incidence of these things 1%. Or maybe not. But that's the way to think about it- percentages of reduction in the incidence, not would scenario X be prevented. It's impossible to answer the latter type of question because who knows what else would have happened. Maybe the gun control law makes it illegal for the dad to give the gun as a gift. Would he have just done it anyways? Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to know. If he hadn't given him the gun, would Dylann have gotten a gun somewhere else? No way to know. But, we can know that if gifting guns were made illegal, for example, some percentage of gun gifters wouldn't do it and some percentage of shooters who got their guns as gifts wouldn't get a gun another way. Whether an anti-gun-gifting law would be a good idea would depend on what those percentages are and whether they are high enough to outweigh the impediment to law abiding gun gifters and recipients.

    IMO, the way we should approach gun control questions is to look at different countries and states, see which measures seem to have actually been effective, and see what impediments they have actually created for lawful gun owners, and weigh it out. The whole gun debate in the US all gets way too emotional, ideological and generally silly IMO. I see it as a statistical research problem more than an ideological problem and I think that if we approached it that way, we'd all end up a lot better off because of it.
    If he knew the kid had a criminal record-then the gift is a federal felony. looking at other countries is a waste of time unless you can control for all the variables. and you cannot. and we aren't going to do what Britain did-have a collective bed wetting over one massacre and ban everyone else from owning pistols as they did in England.

    the problem is-all the solutions we hear are going to penalize far more good people than they will impede bad actors. and all the proponents shrug that cost off because, in the long run-that is what they mainly want anyway.

    bottom line-the most serious crime a person can commit is mass murder. if the penalties for that doesn't deter him, any other "prophylactic" measure won't either
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Yes, read their economic theories.
    That doesn't necessarily make them a leftist group.

    Socially, they are actually very far right.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Folks, this guy has said he "Wanted to start a civil war". A race war between blacks and whites.

    Now I think he's drastically over-estimating his own importance and the impact of his heinous action... but if we let it, this incident could be yet another brick in the wall separating us by race.
    So he wanted to do what white supremacists have been saying they want to do for a while...? I am shocked. I am shocked that white nationalism would lead to this. Wait...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

    The Turner Diaries is a 1978 novel by William Luther Pierce (founder of the white nationalist organization National Alliance) written under the pseudonym "Andrew Macdonald".[1] The Turner Diaries depicts a violent revolution in the United States which leads to the overthrow of the United States federal government, nuclear war, and, ultimately, to a race war leading to the extermination of all groups deemed by the author as a threat such as Jews, gay people, and non-whites.[2] The book was called "explicitly racist and anti-Semitic" by The New York Times and has been labeled a "bible of the racist right" by the Southern Poverty Law Center.[3][4]
    The Order, an early 1980s white supremacist group that emerged from the Aryan Nations, was involved in murder, robberies and counterfeiting, and was named after the group in the book and motivated by the book's scenarios for a race war. The group committed one of the biggest highway robberies of all time, then murdered radio host Alan Berg and engaged in other acts of violence in order to hasten the race war described in the book.[13]

    Timothy McVeigh, responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, was found carrying an envelope containing pages from The Turner Diaries after the attack.[14]

    John William King was convicted of dragging James Byrd, an African-American, to his death in Jasper, Texas in 1998. As King shackled Byrd's legs to the back of his truck he was reported to have said, "We're going to start The Turner Diaries early."[15]

    David Copeland, a British Neo-Nazi who killed three people in a bombing campaign against London's black, Asian and gay communities in April 1999, quoted from The Turner
    Diaries while being interviewed by police.[16]

    During the course of a federal trial relating to charges of conspiracy to violate civil rights and assault under color of law of Frank Jude, Jr. in 2004 by several off-duty police officers in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, a copy of The Turner Diaries was found during a search of the home of one of the officers charged and later convicted.[17]

    A copy of The Turner Diaries was found (amidst other Neo-Nazi propaganda) in the home of Jacob D. Robida, who attacked three men at a gay bar in New Bedford, Massachusetts with a hatchet and a gun. Robida fled, killing a hostage and a police officer before committing suicide.[18]
    Okay, maybe I'm not that shocked seeing the kind of literature that is available to people who support apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia. That some people still believe this can be chucked up to mental illness is beyond me. The guy supported a clear ideology and wanted to exterminate blacks. He picked a place where people would be defenseless and premeditated the entire ordeal. There is no need to find some excuse other than his beliefs. We can all move on now.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    bottom line-the most serious crime a person can commit is mass murder. if the penalties for that doesn't deter him, any other "prophylactic" measure won't either
    That doesn't make sense. You seem to be picturing a particular scenario where guns remain equally readily available, but the law adds on a penalty for having a gun in addition to the penalty for mass murder. That would obviously be pointless, but that isn't how most gun control laws work. Most gun control laws work by banning some behavior committed by somebody other than the shooter. For example, penalizing dealers that don't follow regulations, penalizing lawful owners that leave their guns laying around unlocked, etc. Or, that enable authorities to take guns away from people who are particularly likely to commit murder. Or, that limit the lethality of the guns that are available. Etc. They don't rely on the potential shooter choosing to obey the law, obviously.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Puigb View Post
    That doesn't necessarily make them a leftist group.

    Socially, they are actually very far right.
    Yes, socially they were black nationalists. They were also more than willing to cooperate with and even conduct joint attacks with white leftists. Face the facts, ethnic nationalists can still be economic and political leftists.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    rather than derail this thread with more anti gun owner idiocy, why not tell us what laws would have stopped this shooting since you clearly implied this was a failure of not having the right laws in place.
    Too early.

    Besides, what can anyone do? It's a conundrum.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So he wanted to do what white supremacists have been saying they want to do for a while...? I am shocked. I am shocked that white nationalism would lead to this. Wait...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries





    Okay, maybe I'm not that shocked seeing the kind of literature that is available to people who support apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia. That some people still believe this can be chucked up to mental illness is beyond me. The guy supported a clear ideology and wanted to exterminate blacks. He picked a place where people would be defenseless and premeditated the entire ordeal. There is no need to find some excuse other than his beliefs. We can all move on now.
    Have you ever read the Turner Diaries Hatuey? I read it years ago after attending a seminar on extremist groups. It was written by "andy McDonald" a pen name for William Pierce of the National Alliance. it is so over the top anti black and anti semitic, I, and others who read it, thought it was written by someone Jewish to make the anti semitic/anti black racist right look even more stupid than they are. its that over the top. I guess to inbred imbeciles, it might have its intended impact but everyone I know who has read it, said the same thing I did.

    If you want a real laugh, read up on "the Midwest Bank Robbers" Langan and Guthrie. Friends of mine prosecuted Langan (Guthrie hung himself in the Boone County jail-used by the SDOH DOJ for holding area) Langan, a racist white supremacist was also a drag queen at night and his defense in trial was that if his aryan brotherhood gang members found out he went out in miniskirts and fishnets, they'd kill him and that caused him mental distress

    the white supremacist movement is made up of morons, losers, and people with serious mental issues. they are the best proof against their own theory of supremacy
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Yes, socially they were black nationalists. They were also more than willing to cooperate with and even conduct joint attacks with white leftists. Face the facts, ethnic nationalists can still be economic and political leftists.
    Well hell, even white nationalists can be economically "leftists".

    That doesn't necessarily make then "leftists" groups though. Socially, they lean to the right, and ironically have a lot in common with black nationalists.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    That doesn't make sense. You seem to be picturing a particular scenario where guns remain equally readily available, but the law adds on a penalty for having a gun in addition to the penalty for mass murder. That would obviously be pointless, but that isn't how most gun control laws work. Most gun control laws work by banning some behavior committed by somebody other than the shooter. For example, penalizing dealers that don't follow regulations, penalizing lawful owners that leave their guns laying around unlocked, etc. Or, that enable authorities to take guns away from people who are particularly likely to commit murder. Or, that limit the lethality of the guns that are available. Etc. They don't rely on the potential shooter choosing to obey the law, obviously.
    those laws are all in place. the shooter in this case reloaded 5 times-are you suggesting the idiotic magazine limits some want would have made a difference

    every time we have a shooting like this, the gun banners complain about guns and never ever can set forth what would have actually prevented this that is realistic
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  10. #570
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    That doesn't make sense. You seem to be picturing a particular scenario where guns remain equally readily available, but the law adds on a penalty for having a gun in addition to the penalty for mass murder. That would obviously be pointless, but that isn't how most gun control laws work. Most gun control laws work by banning some behavior committed by somebody other than the shooter. For example, penalizing dealers that don't follow regulations, penalizing lawful owners that leave their guns laying around unlocked, etc. Or, that enable authorities to take guns away from people who are particularly likely to commit murder. Or, that limit the lethality of the guns that are available. Etc. They don't rely on the potential shooter choosing to obey the law, obviously.

    None of which will have any significant impact on determined criminals and crazies.

    I'm an ex-cop. I've known felons (already barred from buying or possessing firearms) re-arm themselves within 24 hours after leaving prison.

    300 million guns... many of them never had any paperwork on them to start with. Nothing short of mass house to house searches with gun-sniffing dogs is going to really get guns out of the hands of criminals, and the American people won't tolerate that level of draconian policing.

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