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Thread: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

  1. #1121
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I can only respond to the bottom. I will do the rest later. But what you said in the last 2 is important. Really just the last. Mental illness, diagnosable and true psychological damage CAN be developed. And it can be caused by events in life. Drugs can do this (even marijuana to young users). Or post traumatic stress. I don't disagree with that about columbine.
    Can be developed yes, but again, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. (Setting aside the question if mental illness contributed to this tragedy)

    I think you're looking at this as if mental illness is source of the problem, a problem which can manifest itself as a racist killer.

    The view that I (and I think others) take, is that the problem here is racism in the form of widespread propaganda. In this case, right wing propaganda in the aftermath of the Zimmerman/Martin case. And when certain susceptible people, ie the mentally ill, societal outcasts, psychopaths, etc.. are exposed to only biased information, a few of them will funnel that hatred into violent acts. But the driving cause of their actions isn't mental illness, it's racism.

    I don't view Roof as a monster, any more than I view Tsarnaev or any of the 9/11 hijackers as monsters. They're individuals doing what they thought was right. It doesn't make them moral or any less culpable, but if we want to reduce the number of future incidents then we have to understand why people do horrible things.

    So if we want to start pointing fingers, then the best place to start is at all of us. Far too many of us see racism and turn a blind eye, or ignore it all together. Others stoke the fires of racial hatred for political or partisan gain. Still others promote an underground of hatred. They might not commit any acts of violence; but were it not for them this tragedy would not have happened.

    We need to take stock of our own biases and prejudices. Having them doesn't make us bad people, it makes us human. What makes us bad is refusing to look for them or pretending that they're not there. We also all need to acknowledge that most African Americans exist in a world that most whites can't relate to. They regularly deal with problems that whites never encounter. White privilege is a real thing. It doesn't mean that whites don't work hard, or aren't deserving of success. It just means that maybe some empathy is in order.

    That's why I'm torn about this whole flag thing. It's great that a number of members of the GOP have condemned it, and we should all applaud them. But I worry that the taking down of the flag is a distraction from the real problems. Maybe at the end of a long drawn out debate, SC will "accede" to the blacks demands and "placate" them by removing the flag.. And we can feel good about ourselves because we've "solved" the problem of racism once and for all... all without actually changing anything or asking any hard questions about ourselves.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Rather muddled thinking. You have this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    The view that I (and I think others) take, is that the problem here is racism in the form of widespread propaganda. In this case, right wing propaganda in the aftermath of the Zimmerman/Martin case.
    Then this.
    So if we want to start pointing fingers, then the best place to start is at all of us.
    Then this.
    We need to take stock of our own biases and prejudices.
    Yes, indeed!

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you're are advocating gun bans. nothing is sensible about the stuff you support other than trying to ban guns

    and most gun banners-if not all are liberals, lefties, socialists, progressives etc.. when I see the nonsense about gun fetishes its a dead giveaway that the motivation for gun control is cultural-=has nothing to do with stopping criminals
    You've no clue. By your logic, it's an unconstitutional gun ban to restrict the public from buying 20MM helicopter-capable chain guns.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    My mistake - I foolishly took your previous comments to be your views and not just trolling. Perhaps my mistake came from your comments in post #584 where you claimed that most whites in the south "accept" racism.
    Does "most whites in the South accept racism" EQUAL "an entire ideology is racist"? No. The mistake was yours, and everything I stated is true.

    Or perhaps my mistake stems from your comments in post #600 where you claimed that conservative politics makes these tragedies more likely and that in the case of this tragedy conservative politics were "almost certainly" involved.
    Does "conservative politics makes these tragedies more likely" EQUAL "every conflict is racism"? No. The mistake was yours, and everything I stated is true.

    In future, I'll be sure simply to ignore such comments as these since you like to ignore them as well after you've posted them.
    No, I doubt that. I figure you'll still respond, but only after making sure that no light of reality penetrates those assumption-colored glasses you're wearing - you know, the ones that lead you to make epic logical fails like those you've made in the past few replies.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Well then...isn't it broad brush stupid for liberals to brand all gun owners with the same brush when one of the kooks commits mass murder? That's what the left does when it screams "gun control" every time one of the few nutjobs starts shooting.
    "There you go again"...with yet another broad-brush attack of your own.

    You're assuming that we brand ALL gun owners with the same brush...when 32% of all Democrats ARE gun owners. As we have stated time and time AND TIME AGAIN, we aren't after the law-abiding gun owners - but we DO want to do what is necessary to keep the guns out of the hands of those who should not have them!

    It's the gun-rights lobby that is ensuring the ease of access to guns by sexual predators, ex-felons, sociopaths, terrorists, and the like. The measures we want do NOT restrict the ability of law-abiding gun owners to own (almost) any gun they want or how many guns they want. The measures we want are for keeping them out the hands of those who should never have them to begin with.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    This is false. Lincoln was a well known moderate on the issue of slavery.

    THAT is why he was elected. He actually beat out a blatant anti-slavery firebrand for the Republican nomination, precisely because the party knew that a candidate running primarily on the issue of slavery would be unelectable.

    The South simply wasn't willing to compromise at all, unfortunately.
    You're aware that there have been numerous incarnations of the KKK, right? Only the first had anything whatsoever to do with Confederacy, and that was simply because it happened to be an insurgent group made up of Southern veterans from the Civil War.

    Among the Klan's later incarnations, the strongest bastion for roughly half of the Twentieth Century was the Midwest, not the South. Indiana, in point of fact, had the highest rate of Klan membership per capita in the entire country prior to 1940, and they tended to be just as focused on Catholics (the largest lynch mob in American history was actually formed to try and capture some random foreigner at a train station which wild rumor held was secretly the Pope in disguise) and European immigrants as they ever were African Americans.

    Where the modern Klan, which legitimately was reformed to deal with the issue of desegregation in the 1960s, is concerned, they have about as much to do with the actual C.S.A. as the Waffen S.S. had to do with the medieval order of the Teutonic Knights - which is to say, next to nothing at all. Just because a bunch of whackjobs try to co-opt a certain symbol in order to bolster their own perceived legitimacy, doesn't mean that they are correct in doing so.[/QUOTE]

    I appreciate the fact that you're trying to approach the debate in a thoughtful and logical way...but I still have to disagree with you in the strongest of terms. It was never 'just' the Klan. Nowhere else in America did blacks face what they did - and to some extent still do - to this very day.

    I graduated high school in Shaw, MS. in 1980. When I came home on leave from the Navy in 1984, I took a walk down the main street. There was only one doctor's office in town, and it had two doors. Above one door was "white", and above the other door was "colored"...and people still abided by these signs.

    This was twenty years after the Civil Rights Act.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    For that matter, it's not even like Segregation was an exclusively Southern phenomenon anyway. It was simply a bit more "official" in the South, so it was more of a public struggle to get rid of it.
    I mentioned I attended a "segregation academy". It was Indianola Academy, which I think has like two or three blacks attending now (in a county that's 71% black). The segregation academy system was initiated by those who opposed the findings in "Brown v. Board of Education" and the Civil Rights Act. Those who opposed it began something called the "White Citizens Council":

    The first Citizens' Council (also known as the White Citizens' Council) was formed in Indianola, Mississippi, following the United States Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education ruling, which struck down segregation in public schools. White businessmen, planters, and professionals organized the group to prevent the court's ruling from taking hold in Mississippi. Thomas Pickens Brady, a circuit court judge and Citizens' Council leader, published a handbook entitled Black Monday outlining the group's goals, including the abolition of public schools, nullification of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and establishment of a separate black state. The publication of this handbook inspired many Mississippians to join the Citizens' Council movement.

    Other Citizens' Council chapters were formed around the state, and within three months a statewide body, the Association of Citizens' Councils of Mississippi, began in Winona, Mississippi. By 1956, the group claimed eighty thousand members in Mississippi. It was particularly active in the Delta region and also had a powerful Jackson chapter, led by William J. Simmons. A national group, the Citizens' Council of America, was formed by 1956. Its board of advisors included Senator James O. Eastland and Representative John Bell Williams of Mississippi, Senator J. Strom Thurmond and Representative L. Mendel Rivers of South Carolina, and Georgia Governor Marvin Griffin.


    That Senator John O. Eastland was our family acquaintance, was twice president pro tem, and was the most powerful racist in America for a generation. As you can see above, the founding of the White Citizens Council was quite political, and was powerful indeed.

    That "White Citizens Council" eventually changed its name to the "Council of Conservative Citizens"...but the name was all that was changed:

    The Council of Conservative Citizens (CofCC) is an American political organization that supports a large variety of conservative and paleoconservative causes in addition to white nationalism, and white separatism. Its Statement of Principles says that they oppose "oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind". Several members of the CofCC Board of Directors are former leaders of the segregationist Citizens' Councils of America, founded by Bob Patterson (a retired Command Sgt Major), which is commonly referred to as the White Citizens' Council. The organization is headquartered in St. Louis.
    ...
    The SPLC and the Miami Herald tallied a further 38 federal, state, and local politicians who appeared at CofCC events between 2000 and 2004. The ADL states the following politicians are members or have spoken at meetings: Senator Trent Lott, Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, Mississippi state senators Gary Jackson, and Dean Kirby, several Mississippi state representatives. People who have also spoken at CofCC meetings include Ex-Governors Guy Hunt of Alabama, and Kirk Fordice of Mississippi. U.S. Senator Roger Wicker of Mississippi is said to have attended as well.

    In 2005, the Council of Conservative Citizens held its National Conference in Montgomery, Alabama. George Wallace Jr., an Alabama Public Service Commissioner and former State Treasurer who was then running for Lieutenant Governor, and Sonny Landham, an actor, spoke at the conference.


    It was political then, and it is political now...and we've all seen that the SC shooter was influenced by what he saw in the CCC webpage.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    For that matter, it's not even like Segregation was an exclusively Southern phenomenon anyway. It was simply a bit more "official" in the South, so it was more of a public struggle to get rid of it.
    A "bit more official"???? Dude - that's the understatement of the decade. As you can see above (in addition to little things like Wilcox, GA having its first segregated prom in 2013), it was much worse in the South.

    Sooo... Yea. Sorry, man. I don't see any way in which either the C.S.A., or "Southern culture," is tied to what happened in Charleston. It was the act of a lone, and highly disturbed, individual, which has subsequently been condemned from basically all corners of the political spectrum.
    You don't see it simply because you don't want to. But those of us who've lived there, who grew up with it and know what it's really like...we know better. I've been one of those racists - I know what they think and why they think as they do...and with but a modicum of objective research, it is obvious to even the casual observer that racism was and is to this day an integral part of politics in the South. After all, why do you think that Mississippi's state congress never voted on ratifying the 13th Amendment until 1995...and never had it officially ratified until 2013 (yes, two years ago)?

    The sooner people stop trying to make it into something it's not in the interests of fueling their own regional/cultural bigotry and ideological biases, the better.
    Guy, nobody ever wants to admit their side is wrong - it's hard to do, especially when one despises what the other side stands for. I was once a strong conservative, and a strong Republican, and I despised the Democrats...but I could not ignore what I saw, what I knew firsthand to be true. Y'all can try to deny the part that racism plays in Southern politics and culture all the way down to the individual level, but I know better - been there, done that, and seen the issue from more sides than almost anyone else.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #1129
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Does "most whites in the South accept racism" EQUAL "an entire ideology is racist"? No. The mistake was yours, and everything I stated is true.



    Does "conservative politics makes these tragedies more likely" EQUAL "every conflict is racism"? No. The mistake was yours, and everything I stated is true.



    No, I doubt that. I figure you'll still respond, but only after making sure that no light of reality penetrates those assumption-colored glasses you're wearing - you know, the ones that lead you to make epic logical fails like those you've made in the past few replies.
    In honour of post 1119, I won't respond in kind to your post here. Have a good day.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    There are roughly 130 million Americans who possess guns. There are over 3 million guns owned by American citizens. Yet only a tiny fraction of 1% use them to commit any crime much less murder. Do the math. The right to possess firearms is not the problem. And btw, gun violence is actually down by roughly 40% since 1994.
    And our gun violence is still far higher than that of any other first-world nation.

    The right to possess firearms is not the problem...WHEN the one who possesses those firearms is a law-abiding citizen. Tell me, guy, are you willing to do what is necessary to minimize the ability of sexual predators, illegal aliens, sociopaths, and terrorists from possessing firearms?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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