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Thread: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Anti intellectualism is right. Why? Because only someone who has no intellect would look at this situation and blame guns and racism. Let me ask you a serious question: how many racists are there in this country?

    The answer is plenty. If racism CAUSED this incident...then why don't we see more race related mass murders? Now do you think this kids racism was the biggest factor in what caused the shooting? Because that ignores that there are racists all over the place, and few engage in mass shootings.

    Any guns? Guns being part of the problem? 3 things:

    1) 0.02% of firearms owners commit murder.
    2) Mass murder is even LESS common.
    3) There are many racist people who own guns. They STILL don't commit mass murder.

    So it isn't access to guns, it isn't gun ownership, and it isn't racism that caused this issue. So as far as "anti intellectualism goes" I agree...it is the people who are constantly focusing on the non issue. The issues that are politically expedient and great to talk about because they hurt your rival politicians and their lobby group. ESPECIALLY with an upcoming election cycle.

    Why aren't we talking about the fact that relatively few people commit this kind of act? Why aren't we asking for a special behavioral analysis group to begin testing and evaluation of the mentally violent and unstable? How many times do people have to go on murdering with knives and guns and all this, until some scumbag politician finally decides that the interests of America might be better served in looking at the root cause of violence.

    You want more gun control? That means more cops to enforce it? Last I checked the democrats were up in arms over police brutality? Who the hell is going to deal with more gun control? The incompetent ATF? Seriously. All of the stuff piling up and we STILL are not hearing calls for improved mental health care.

    No. Let's continue on our self involved Facebook world and ignore the consequences of our increasingly cut off culture that isolates these lunatics even further from help.
    Using this logic, middle eastern terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. After all, BILLIONS of people follow Islam, but only a handful of people are terrorists.

    It's anti-intellectualism to look at a situation in which a white person goes into a black church and murders black people in cold blood, writes a manifesto stating that black people are the problem; and then state that racism isn't a cause.
    <Facepalm>

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So again I will repeat you this one simple statistic:

    .02% of gun owners commit murder. Even less when you consider a majority of murders are committed with illegally owned firearms by unlawful owners. And about .00016% of firearms owners have committed mass murder in the past 3 decades.

    Easy availability didn't cause anything. Nor a "gun culture." How can you see these percentages and actually assign blame to the object?

    AGAIN...how many gun owners commit these acts? How many racists? Why are people like you constantly trying to focus on the things that are NOT the causes? Are you even interested in trying to reduce murder and deal with our ACTUAL crisis in handling and understanding what causes someone to go over the brink and start murdering others?

    Tell me...what do we know about these people? What do we know about their reasoning? About their mental health? Their medications? We do know that most showed warning signs of this violent behavior. Even this shooter had drug issues.

    I will give you that I think it is a culture issue. I think our culture has fostered a selfish mentality where the world is all about me. AND on top of that...we have increasing connectivity between hundreds of millions of people. If not BILLIONS. But guess what? How many people are losing touch with REAL flesh and blood humans? How many kids are playing video games as their primary sport? Or Facebook and texting for their social interaction? People have lost touch with REALITY in search for those billions of individual "realities" created in their perfect little self involved world.

    So yes. Culture is an issue. But it isn't the politically expedient "gun culture" (aka republican voters). It is the culture that has isolated the individual, thrown them into a sea of billions, ostracized them, ignores the warning signs, and refuses to look deal with the HUMAN aspect of life (aka...ALL people in America). Oh and let's not forget that we plaster these faceless people's image all over the world so that in their last desperate act to step away from the faceless crowd...they get recognition.

    We can continue down this path, and even if guns were magically gone...we wouldn't become a civilized society. We would still be violent. And these people would be come bombers and knife wielders and rapists and so many other things. We will still ostracize and discourage people who seek to connect through the real world, encourage faceless interaction, and give recognition to the desperate seeking it like crack addicts trying to score.
    I started posting on forums about ten years ago on a forum with zero moderation. An absolute free speech zone. It was surreal. At first is was incredibly cool as not too many people knew about it. But after about four years, it turned into the last refuge of freaks banned from all other sites. This too was very interesting. It gave a wide window into the fringe minds across our nation.

    I've seen folks offer bounties for Jewish scalps, ears, hands. I've seen serious calls for a white uprising, racial wars, etc. And these hate mongers never let up... But all of them are chicken**** voters... They don't want to start the war themselves, they want to incite others to do it for them. They whip ignorant idiots into a frenzy and eventually one of them has enough mental collapse do to other factors in their lives that they snap.. And hundreds of thousands of race haters make the "O-face"...

    Of course there are other factors at play... But race hatred was the vehicle to express all else that was going wrong with this kid.
    Spin Proof

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I'm not denying that this kid wasn't racist and his racism chose his target. But be honest here...if he hadn't done it here...do you REALLY think he wouldn't he eventually committed, or attempted, a mass homicidal act. From what he said, he seems to think he is a victim. And we know he was on drugs.

    I have to ask you: how many racist actually breach the murder line? Not many. So what the hell caused this nut bag to do it? We can decry racism and all that other garbage, but you should be smart enough to know that that will all be political outcry. It won't be a solution. And it will do nothing helpful in the end:



    Groucho Marx

    Now can you actually say that the diagnosis here is that it was guns and racism that pushed him over the brink? Or was it something else? Why are do people want to NOT focus on the fact that our understanding of mental health in this nation, and how we should go about it is basically non existent.
    If this guy wasn't exposed to mass quantities of racist propaganda, especially in the aftermath of Trevon Martin, than it's unlikely that he would have committed any violent act whatsoever.


    Lots of people have guns, but almost no one commits mass murder.
    Lots of people are racist, but almost no one commits mass murder.
    Lots of people are mentally ill, but almost no one commits mass murder.
    Lots of people are on drugs, but almost no one commits mass murder.

    The reasons behind this shooting are like legs on a stool. Take any of them away and it doesn't happen. Mental health is certainly an issue, but it's not the only issue. And it says something about ourselves when we try to focus just on mental health when it's a white guy committing the act, but ignore mental health when it's anyone else.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    So since there are racists who haven't committed mass murder then your point is that race isn't a factor or the primary reason for this shooter? You can't be serious.
    I am DEADLY serious that RACISM decided his target. Are you seriously telling me that there wasn't something else that drove him to commit mass homicide? In fact I will go even further. I would wager good money his racism was a SYMPTOM of whatever rage issue he had.

    Tell me. Do you think racism is a diagnosis? Is it listed in the psychology texts as a mental illness? No. Racism is a point of view. Usually it comes from ignorance. Stupidity even. And yes. Hatred. But how often does this point of view become SO extreme that someone decides they are going to, in cold blood, kill 9 people they don't know and have never met?

    I'm not defending racism. I'm BEGGING for Americans to stop being morons and STOP listening to the short Cutting politicians and START asking for some answers about our violence problem.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    If this guy wasn't exposed to mass quantities of racist propaganda, especially in the aftermath of Trevon Martin, than it's unlikely that he would have committed any violent act whatsoever.


    Lots of people have guns, but almost no one commits mass murder.
    Lots of people are racist, but almost no one commits mass murder.
    Lots of people are mentally ill, but almost no one commits mass murder.
    Lots of people are on drugs, but almost no one commits mass murder.

    The reasons behind this shooting are like legs on a stool. Take any of them away and it doesn't happen. Mental health is certainly an issue, but it's not the only issue. And it says something about ourselves when we try to focus just on mental health when it's a white guy committing the act, but ignore mental health when it's anyone else.
    You think I'm saying this because he is WHITE!! I said the same ****ing thing when this happened at the naval yard. I say the same thing when I see violence like this.

    But let me ask you...do you actually think this kid wouldn't have found something ELSE to get mad at? What we have right now is the ability to ASK and determine what the hell is wrong with his wiring.

    It isn't selfish or self involved to demand action on the mental health front. Especially since race and gun control topics have been an issue for 400 years. What hasn't been is the study of the human mind and disorders that cause someone to try and kill as many humans as they meet.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    I started posting on forums about ten years ago on a forum with zero moderation. An absolute free speech zone. It was surreal. At first is was incredibly cool as not too many people knew about it. But after about four years, it turned into the last refuge of freaks banned from all other sites. This too was very interesting. It gave a wide window into the fringe minds across our nation.

    I've seen folks offer bounties for Jewish scalps, ears, hands. I've seen serious calls for a white uprising, racial wars, etc. And these hate mongers never let up... But all of them are chicken**** voters... They don't want to start the war themselves, they want to incite others to do it for them. They whip ignorant idiots into a frenzy and eventually one of them has enough mental collapse do to other factors in their lives that they snap.. And hundreds of thousands of race haters make the "O-face"...

    Of course there are other factors at play... But race hatred was the vehicle to express all else that was going wrong with this kid.
    It wasn't the CAUSE. It was the excuse. It was a symptom of underlying problems. Again. I will put it out there that this is NOT about protecting racists. This is about taking the time look at what causes someone to murder.

    And I think you touched on part of it with your talk about the online world. A place that lets those scumbags TO SAY EXACTLY what is on their mind, and find people who may justify it. They aren't out in the real world sharing these idiotic views with other humans who can say "hey there is something wrong with you." No...they think their own opinions are facts. They lose touch with reality.

    Can you actually deny that the underlying cause and that what REALLY drove him to murder was something fundamentally wrong with his mind. Not his point of view (which was ignorant and stupid).
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    You think I'm saying this because he is WHITE!! I said the same ****ing thing when this happened at the naval yard. I say the same thing when I see violence like this.

    But let me ask you...do you actually think this kid wouldn't have found something ELSE to get mad at? What we have right now is the ability to ASK and determine what the hell is wrong with his wiring.

    It isn't selfish or self involved to demand action on the mental health front. Especially since race and gun control topics have been an issue for 400 years. What hasn't been is the study of the human mind and disorders that cause someone to try and kill as many humans as they meet.
    I appreciate what you're trying to say. We all need to think more deeply about these things, but I think you've taken it a step too far.

    It's highly unlikely that he would have found something else to get mad at. That's not how mental health issues work. He didn't have the mental illness "random people killer", he didn't randomly select black people as his target.

    If you were right, and racism wasn't a factor, then we'd expect to see mass killers targeting everyone equally. Someone with your "random people killer" sickness might target left handers, or bald people, or people with yellow hats. But we don't see that. People target people that are hated. The hatred is a conduit. Without the conduit, you don't have any action.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I am DEADLY serious that RACISM decided his target. Are you seriously telling me that there wasn't something else that drove him to commit mass homicide? In fact I will go even further. I would wager good money his racism was a SYMPTOM of whatever rage issue he had.

    Tell me. Do you think racism is a diagnosis? Is it listed in the psychology texts as a mental illness? No. Racism is a point of view. Usually it comes from ignorance. Stupidity even. And yes. Hatred. But how often does this point of view become SO extreme that someone decides they are going to, in cold blood, kill 9 people they don't know and have never met?

    I'm not defending racism. I'm BEGGING for Americans to stop being morons and STOP listening to the short Cutting politicians and START asking for some answers about our violence problem.
    He didn't commit mass murder until he started looking into Trayvon Martin and violence against whites. There is nothing I have seen that suggests he suffered any type of mental trauma right around that time. So it was the same mind. People knew him in High School. He wasn't perceived as racist. He had black friends who didn't perceive him as racist. As best I can tell prior to finding racist propaganda online this kid was not racist. Nor had he committed mass murder.

    Propaganda is dangerous. Making people believe they are superior, that someone else is inferior, that X poses a threat to you or way of life ect. The propaganda is worded in such ways that people can be sucked into it. Especially when there is no alternative point of view. No real context. It is specifically worded to bring the reader or listener to the conclusion that is desired. As an example all of 1930's Germany was not suffering from mental illness. But they bought into this propaganda.

    Some people are very good at manipulation, and others are very gullible. That is what seems to have taken place here. People buy into this stuff for whatever reason. And they are going to choose to react to it in different ways. Just because they don't all commit mass murder, doesn't diminish the role racism played in this. It is the primary factor. This kid was fed a bunch of hate, and accepted it. Then he choose to act on it in this manner. There is nothing to suggest had he not been exposed to the level of racism he was, or if he hadn't bought into it, that he would have killed anyone else, because as I said before, he hadn't committed mass murder prior to that, or shown signs on wanting to that we know of.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So again I will repeat you this one simple statistic:

    .02% of gun owners commit murder. Even less when you consider a majority of murders are committed with illegally owned firearms by unlawful owners. And about .00016% of firearms owners have committed mass murder in the past 3 decades.

    Easy availability didn't cause anything. Nor a "gun culture." How can you see these percentages and actually assign blame to the object?

    AGAIN...how many gun owners commit these acts? How many racists? Why are people like you constantly trying to focus on the things that are NOT the causes? Are you even interested in trying to reduce murder and deal with our ACTUAL crisis in handling and understanding what causes someone to go over the brink and start murdering others?

    Tell me...what do we know about these people? What do we know about their reasoning? About their mental health? Their medications? We do know that most showed warning signs of this violent behavior. Even this shooter had drug issues.

    I will give you that I think it is a culture issue. I think our culture has fostered a selfish mentality where the world is all about me. AND on top of that...we have increasing connectivity between hundreds of millions of people. If not BILLIONS. But guess what? How many people are losing touch with REAL flesh and blood humans? How many kids are playing video games as their primary sport? Or Facebook and texting for their social interaction? People have lost touch with REALITY in search for those billions of individual "realities" created in their perfect little self involved world.

    So yes. Culture is an issue. But it isn't the politically expedient "gun culture" (aka republican voters). It is the culture that has isolated the individual, thrown them into a sea of billions, ostracized them, ignores the warning signs, and refuses to look deal with the HUMAN aspect of life (aka...ALL people in America). Oh and let's not forget that we plaster these faceless people's image all over the world so that in their last desperate act to step away from the faceless crowd...they get recognition.

    We can continue down this path, and even if guns were magically gone...we wouldn't become a civilized society. We would still be violent. And these people would be come bombers and knife wielders and rapists and so many other things. We will still ostracize and discourage people who seek to connect through the real world, encourage faceless interaction, and give recognition to the desperate seeking it like crack addicts trying to score.
    100% of gunshot wounds involve guns.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I appreciate what you're trying to say. We all need to think more deeply about these things, but I think you've taken it a step too far.

    It's highly unlikely that he would have found something else to get mad at. That's not how mental health issues work. He didn't have the mental illness "random people killer", he didn't randomly select black people as his target.

    If you were right, and racism wasn't a factor, then we'd expect to see mass killers targeting everyone equally. Someone with your "random people killer" sickness might target left handers, or bald people, or people with yellow hats. But we don't see that. People target people that are hated. The hatred is a conduit. Without the conduit, you don't have any action.
    2 things though. I never said he randomly selected blacks. It was the racism that decided his target. I'm NOT denying that. What I am suggesting is that this guy, like other mass killers, has an underlying issue that we know nothing about.

    We DO see mass killers target random crowd of people. To me that signifies a hatred of society. I've said from the beginning this guy isn't a textbook mass killer, but he will have textbook traits.

    Hated I think is the right track. But I would go further and say a pathological hatred. Maybe a pathological rage. And the scary part to ME is a pathological HIDDEN rage. I don't think we as a society have gone far enough to discuss this stuff. Look at new town. That asshole targeted the kids who he thought were stealing his mother. My suggestion is that these people are expressing a hatred. Just like you said. Yes. But it is MORE than just hate. You hate rapist right? Pedophiles? I know I do. They make me sick. But I don't go on a spree targeting them.

    Tldr

    It is more than hate. It is deeper.
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