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Thread: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Reading this and similar threads makes it hard to disagree with this assessment:

    " The tragedy in Charleston last week will no doubt lead to more discussion of several important and recurring issues in American culture—particularly racism and gun violence—but these dialogues are unlikely to bear much fruit until the nation undertakes a serious self-examination. Decrying racism and gun violence is fine, but for too long America’s social dysfunction has continued to intensify as the nation has ignored a key underlying pathology: anti-intellectualism.

    America is killing itself through its embrace and exaltation of ignorance, and the evidence is all around us. Dylann Roof, the Charleston shooter who used race as a basis for hate and mass murder, is just the latest horrific example. Many will correctly blame Roof's actions on America's culture of racism and gun violence, but it's time to realize that such phenomena are directly tied to the nation's culture of ignorance. ... "

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...illing-america
    Anti-intellectualism has been a thread in the American fabric since our country’s beginnings. So argued Richard Hofstadter over 50 years ago in his Pulitzer prize-winning book Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. In a democracy the inclination is, to borrow from C.S. Lewis, not to “overtop one’s fellows” or be seen as doing so. I don’t think that secular humanist and attorney David Niose is even familiar with Hofstadter’s seminal argument or that he even understands what “intellectualism” means. This piece is shamelessly agenda-driven and partisan.

    Niose doesn’t even address education, only sex ed. because this gives him the opportunity to bash the Bible Belt and “traditional values.” What he is doing here is exploiting the tragedy in Charleston to flog his viewpoints on “hyper-patriotism,” a “blood-thirsty” gun culture, sex education, fundamentalist religion and its climate change denial (which “everybody” in the scientific community accepted for years), and evil corporate interests. Niose even refers to fundamentalists and corporate interests as “bedfellows.”

    Niose would have you believe that if you disagree with him, you just aren’t thinking critically and are instead a slave to your emotions. This is “intellectualism” and critical thinking at work? Poppycock.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Anti intellectualism is right. Why? Because only someone who has no intellect would look at this situation and blame guns and racism. Let me ask you a serious question: how many racists are there in this country?

    The answer is plenty. If racism CAUSED this incident...then why don't we see more race related mass murders? Now do you think this kids racism was the biggest factor in what caused the shooting? Because that ignores that there are racists all over the place, and few engage in mass shootings.

    Any guns? Guns being part of the problem? 3 things:

    1) 0.02% of firearms owners commit murder.
    2) Mass murder is even LESS common.
    3) There are many racist people who own guns. They STILL don't commit mass murder.

    So it isn't access to guns, it isn't gun ownership, and it isn't racism that caused this issue. So as far as "anti intellectualism goes" I agree...it is the people who are constantly focusing on the non issue. The issues that are politically expedient and great to talk about because they hurt your rival politicians and their lobby group. ESPECIALLY with an upcoming election cycle.

    Why aren't we talking about the fact that relatively few people commit this kind of act? Why aren't we asking for a special behavioral analysis group to begin testing and evaluation of the mentally violent and unstable? How many times do people have to go on murdering with knives and guns and all this, until some scumbag politician finally decides that the interests of America might be better served in looking at the root cause of violence.

    You want more gun control? That means more cops to enforce it? Last I checked the democrats were up in arms over police brutality? Who the hell is going to deal with more gun control? The incompetent ATF? Seriously. All of the stuff piling up and we STILL are not hearing calls for improved mental health care.

    No. Let's continue on our self involved Facebook world and ignore the consequences of our increasingly cut off culture that isolates these lunatics even further from help.
    It's pretty friggin' clear that racism at least helped cause this.
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    That might have been a spur, but in the mind of a madman, any excuse will serve--being picked on by the popular kids (Klebold and Harris), rejection by women (Elliott Rogers), the need to show the world...whatever. Who knows what's really inside the mind of an Adam Lanza or Dylann Roof?

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    It's pretty friggin' clear that racism at least helped cause this.
    I'm not denying that this kid wasn't racist and his racism chose his target. But be honest here...if he hadn't done it here...do you REALLY think he wouldn't he eventually committed, or attempted, a mass homicidal act. From what he said, he seems to think he is a victim. And we know he was on drugs.

    I have to ask you: how many racist actually breach the murder line? Not many. So what the hell caused this nut bag to do it? We can decry racism and all that other garbage, but you should be smart enough to know that that will all be political outcry. It won't be a solution. And it will do nothing helpful in the end:

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
    Groucho Marx

    Now can you actually say that the diagnosis here is that it was guns and racism that pushed him over the brink? Or was it something else? Why are do people want to NOT focus on the fact that our understanding of mental health in this nation, and how we should go about it is basically non existent.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    That might have been a spur, but in the mind of a madman, any excuse will serve--being picked on by the popular kids (Klebold and Harris), rejection by women (Elliott Rogers), the need to show the world...whatever. Who knows what's really inside the mind of an Adam Lanza or Dylann Roof?
    But no!!! Guns! Racism!!!

    Seriously. This is exactly the problem. What is the loose wire here?
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I'm not denying that this kid wasn't racist and his racism chose his target. But be honest here...if he hadn't done it here...do you REALLY think he wouldn't he eventually committed, or attempted, a mass homicidal act. From what he said, he seems to think he is a victim. And we know he was on drugs.

    I have to ask you: how many racist actually breach the murder line? Not many. So what the hell caused this nut bag to do it? We can decry racism and all that other garbage, but you should be smart enough to know that that will all be political outcry. It won't be a solution. And it will do nothing helpful in the end:



    Groucho Marx

    Now can you actually say that the diagnosis here is that it was guns and racism that pushed him over the brink? Or was it something else? Why are do people want to NOT focus on the fact that our understanding of mental health in this nation, and how we should go about it is basically non existent.
    You're not wrong on the mental health thing -- it was a toxic cocktail of numerous things, racism being one of them.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    You're not wrong on the mental health thing -- it was a toxic cocktail of numerous things, racism being one of them.
    Again. Like I said. I don't disagree. But it being a cocktail...it wasn't the racism that got him drunk. That was just juice for flavor. My big thing is that I'm pissed off that people want us to focus on race when it is not what caused it. We are squandering the time to actually begin research.

    This scumbag should be turned into a lab rat.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    You're not wrong on the mental health thing -- it was a toxic cocktail of numerous things, racism being one of them.
    Let's not forget about easy availability of guns, and a gun culture that was comfortable with having a mentally ill, obviously hate filled racist bastard being armed. So comfortable, that his family actually bought him a gun.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Let's not forget about easy availability of guns, and a gun culture that was comfortable with having a mentally ill, obviously hate filled racist bastard being armed. So comfortable, that his family actually bought him a gun.
    So again I will repeat you this one simple statistic:

    .02% of gun owners commit murder. Even less when you consider a majority of murders are committed with illegally owned firearms by unlawful owners. And about .00016% of firearms owners have committed mass murder in the past 3 decades.

    Easy availability didn't cause anything. Nor a "gun culture." How can you see these percentages and actually assign blame to the object?

    AGAIN...how many gun owners commit these acts? How many racists? Why are people like you constantly trying to focus on the things that are NOT the causes? Are you even interested in trying to reduce murder and deal with our ACTUAL crisis in handling and understanding what causes someone to go over the brink and start murdering others?

    Tell me...what do we know about these people? What do we know about their reasoning? About their mental health? Their medications? We do know that most showed warning signs of this violent behavior. Even this shooter had drug issues.

    I will give you that I think it is a culture issue. I think our culture has fostered a selfish mentality where the world is all about me. AND on top of that...we have increasing connectivity between hundreds of millions of people. If not BILLIONS. But guess what? How many people are losing touch with REAL flesh and blood humans? How many kids are playing video games as their primary sport? Or Facebook and texting for their social interaction? People have lost touch with REALITY in search for those billions of individual "realities" created in their perfect little self involved world.

    So yes. Culture is an issue. But it isn't the politically expedient "gun culture" (aka republican voters). It is the culture that has isolated the individual, thrown them into a sea of billions, ostracized them, ignores the warning signs, and refuses to look deal with the HUMAN aspect of life (aka...ALL people in America). Oh and let's not forget that we plaster these faceless people's image all over the world so that in their last desperate act to step away from the faceless crowd...they get recognition.

    We can continue down this path, and even if guns were magically gone...we wouldn't become a civilized society. We would still be violent. And these people would be come bombers and knife wielders and rapists and so many other things. We will still ostracize and discourage people who seek to connect through the real world, encourage faceless interaction, and give recognition to the desperate seeking it like crack addicts trying to score.
    Last edited by blackjack50; 06-22-15 at 10:17 AM.
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    Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Anti intellectualism is right. Why? Because only someone who has no intellect would look at this situation and blame guns and racism. Let me ask you a serious question: how many racists are there in this country?

    The answer is plenty. If racism CAUSED this incident...then why don't we see more race related mass murders? Now do you think this kids racism was the biggest factor in what caused the shooting? Because that ignores that there are racists all over the place, and few engage in mass shootings.

    Any guns? Guns being part of the problem? 3 things:

    1) 0.02% of firearms owners commit murder.
    2) Mass murder is even LESS common.
    3) There are many racist people who own guns. They STILL don't commit mass murder.

    So it isn't access to guns, it isn't gun ownership, and it isn't racism that caused this issue. So as far as "anti intellectualism goes" I agree...it is the people who are constantly focusing on the non issue. The issues that are politically expedient and great to talk about because they hurt your rival politicians and their lobby group. ESPECIALLY with an upcoming election cycle.

    Why aren't we talking about the fact that relatively few people commit this kind of act? Why aren't we asking for a special behavioral analysis group to begin testing and evaluation of the mentally violent and unstable? How many times do people have to go on murdering with knives and guns and all this, until some scumbag politician finally decides that the interests of America might be better served in looking at the root cause of violence.

    You want more gun control? That means more cops to enforce it? Last I checked the democrats were up in arms over police brutality? Who the hell is going to deal with more gun control? The incompetent ATF? Seriously. All of the stuff piling up and we STILL are not hearing calls for improved mental health care.

    No. Let's continue on our self involved Facebook world and ignore the consequences of our increasingly cut off culture that isolates these lunatics even further from help.
    So since there are racists who haven't committed mass murder then your point is that race isn't a factor or the primary reason for this shooter? You can't be serious.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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