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'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

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'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say | Fox News
A former Amherst College student is just the latest in a long line of men whose lives have been turned upside-down after being accused of sexual assault in what they say were consensual encounters, punished in campus tribunals where, in some cases, critics say, they’re guilty even after proving their innocence.

The former student, whose name has not been made public, was expelled after his alleged victim, the roommate of his girlfriend, complained some 21 months after the incident and despite what evidence appears to show was consensual sex. As in many campus procedures which enforce school sanctions and not criminal law, only a finding that he was “more likely than not” guilty was necessary.

“Essentially the procedure there works under the assumption that the accused is guilty and needs to use the hearing to prove his innocence,” K.C. Johnson, author of “Until Proven Innocent: Political Correctness and the Shameful Injustice of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case," told Fox News Channel's Megyn Kelly. “But he isn’t given the tools to do that.
So this is where we are now with college rape cases? WTF?
 
Hmm...

Johnson, a history professor at Brooklyn College, said many schools adopted similar standards after a 2011 edict from the Obama administration, which claims 1 out of every 5 women in college is the victim of a sexual assault. In what became known as the “Dear Colleague” letter, the federal Department of Education warned that schools that do not crack down on sexual assaults could lose federal funding.

I wonder if this has anything to do with it.

Oh, almost forgot....if you're sending your son to college don't bother getting him a box of rubbers. Get him an attorney.
 
Campus rapes should be investigated and adjudicated by the local law enforcement authorities, not campus police and administrators who have a conflict of interest, do not have access to all of the investigative tools or the mechanisms for a fair trial. Apparently that does not usually happen because the local police don't like getting involved, but it shouldn't be up to them, they are obligated to enforce the law. Students should only be expelled upon a real legal conviction, although I think suspensions for bad behavior that is not criminal are fine.

By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.
 
Campus rapes should be investigated and adjudicated by the local law enforcement authorities, not campus police and administrators who have a conflict of interest, do not have access to all of the investigative tools or the mechanisms for a fair trial. Apparently that does not usually happen because the local police don't like getting involved, but it shouldn't be up to them, they are obligated to enforce the law. Students should only be expelled upon a real legal conviction, although I think suspensions for bad behavior that is not criminal are fine.

By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.

I think the reason is cost basically.

Rape isn't the easiest thing to prosecute to begin with and in the case of most college cases there's often very little evidence, it's he said she said and it's very messy.

district attorneys aren't exactly gonna jump out of their chairs and file cases they know aren't gonna go anywhere.

That's the sad reality.
 
Campus rapes should be investigated and adjudicated by the local law enforcement authorities, not campus police and administrators who have a conflict of interest, do not have access to all of the investigative tools or the mechanisms for a fair trial. Apparently that does not usually happen because the local police don't like getting involved, but it shouldn't be up to them, they are obligated to enforce the law. Students should only be expelled upon a real legal conviction, although I think suspensions for bad behavior that is not criminal are fine.

By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.
I'm well aware of this, but a lot of it was not reporting by victims. You can't blame the system for that. But putting the accused in a situation where he can't adequately defend himself is not the right way to fix the problem. What we have here is a built in bias AND agenda.
 
I think the reason is cost basically.

Rape isn't the easiest thing to prosecute to begin with and in the case of most college cases there's often very little evidence, it's he said she said and it's very messy.

district attorneys aren't exactly gonna jump out of their chairs and file cases they know aren't gonna go anywhere.

That's the sad reality.

Well this approach is not a solution, and convicting the innocent won't reduce rapes.
 
Well this approach is not a solution, and convicting the innocent won't reduce rapes.

Did I say it was?

What's happening in these tribunals is political and financial reality.

Universities have been accused of not doing enough and in many cases actually actively covering up these kinds of things.

They're doing this to cover their ass because they have a financial incentive to do so... Yeah innocent people are going to get caught up in it and the unfortunate reality is I'm not sure what the solution is because of the nature of what goes on in college.
 
Oh, almost forgot....if you're sending your son to college don't bother getting him a box of rubbers. Get him an attorney.

Or, you know, raise him right, teach him how consent works, be responsible with alcohol, and be careful who he goes home with.

Look, there is no easy answer to dealing with alleged rape cases. The overwhelming majority of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. So inevitably, unless the rape was video taped or done in front of witnesses, it is going to be a case of he said, she said. Because of that most rape cases don't even go to court, let alone end in conviction.

I certainly don't want to abandon our "guilty beyond all reasonable doubt" standard but one of the consequences of that is most rapists will remain free. And yes, sometimes a woman will falsely accuse a man of rape. But the crime of false accusation also cannot easily be proven beyond all reasonable doubt because, once again, it is usually a he said she said case.

In the end, you will usually end up with a rape victim who feels she never received justice and is forced to keep attending the same school as her rapist unless she drops out or you end up with man who was falsely accused and his life is likely ruined to some degree.

Both scenarios suck. There isn't an easy solution to it. But I really am not comfortable with universities being the ones to handle these investigations.
 
College campuses aren't foreign countries or reservations. Its the police department's job to investigate any accusations of a crime, not college administrators, regardless of the crime.
 
Or, you know, raise him right, teach him how consent works, be responsible with alcohol, and be careful who he goes home with.

Raise him to believe unless you have a signed, notarized affidavit, anything you do can come back to bite you?
 

Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
" Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

"The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune
 
Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
" Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

"The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

You here to make a point? Well make it. Some of these cases have already proven the male student innocence. You just want someone to go to jail to satisfy your attitude over other poorly prosecuted cases?
 
Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
" Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

"The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

So you support this guy getting expelled?
 
Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
" Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

"The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

Looks like the majority of reported rapes in college don't have enough evidence to support convictions, let alone indictment.
 
Campus rapes should be investigated and adjudicated by the local law enforcement authorities, not campus police and administrators who have a conflict of interest, do not have access to all of the investigative tools or the mechanisms for a fair trial. Apparently that does not usually happen because the local police don't like getting involved, but it shouldn't be up to them, they are obligated to enforce the law. Students should only be expelled upon a real legal conviction, although I think suspensions for bad behavior that is not criminal are fine.
Well said!!

By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.

The problem with this is that for lot of people, it's a justification for the wrongful acts being done now. The solution isn't to swing the pendulum of injustice the other way, it's to stop it swinging altogether.
 
Campus rapes should be investigated and adjudicated by the local law enforcement authorities, not campus police and administrators who have a conflict of interest, do not have access to all of the investigative tools or the mechanisms for a fair trial. Apparently that does not usually happen because the local police don't like getting involved, but it shouldn't be up to them, they are obligated to enforce the law. Students should only be expelled upon a real legal conviction, although I think suspensions for bad behavior that is not criminal are fine.

By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.
This is most likely true. Doesn't justify swinging too far the other way, though.
 
Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
" Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

"The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

We either believe in "innocent until proven guilty", or we don't.
 
The problem with this is that for lot of people, it's a justification for the wrongful acts being done now. The solution isn't to swing the pendulum of injustice the other way, it's to stop it swinging altogether.
Agreed. Unfortunately, the human species seems utterly incapable of letting the pendulum stop in the middle.
 
Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
" Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

"The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

How is that different than assuming that "He's guilty." is just as relevant??

If the numbers you quote are accurate, then there could be either huge difficulty in getting the evidence needed to convict or a whole lot of false accusations - EITHER ONE could be the case (or there could be other reasons, such manpower limits, lack of access to the needed tech, etc). The solution isn't to make it easier to convict based on bad evidence, the solution is to prosecute the false accusations with JAIL TIME, improve the investigative techniques needed, educate our young people about what EXACTLY constitutes rape (Is waking up with a strange guy in your bed, covered in bodily fluids after a night of drinking grounds for a rape accusation??) and make sure that these kind of investigations are done by PROFESSIONALS in the field, not well-meaning amateurs.
 

While I disagree with the standard, I have no issue with a college like Amherst deciding to use this standard to decide the issue as it is a private university.

I have a more significant issue with a State run school taking action against an individual that results in explusion or suspension for an act that is a criminal issue. Rape is a felony and a crime, and a state school should let what legal action occur rather than exterting a punishment upon the individual coming from a basis that the individual is assumed guilty.
 
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