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Thread: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.

    Perhaps, but two wrongs don't make a right.
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
    " Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

    "The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune
    We either believe in "innocent until proven guilty", or we don't.
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    The problem with this is that for lot of people, it's a justification for the wrongful acts being done now. The solution isn't to swing the pendulum of injustice the other way, it's to stop it swinging altogether.
    Agreed. Unfortunately, the human species seems utterly incapable of letting the pendulum stop in the middle.
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Oh yes! This is where we are at! Without actually knowing all the details of the cases presented, we just go off the words of those of the accused, "im innocent" (which just about every person accused of a crime ususally says...), but lets look beyond this article.
    " Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction." Prosecutors Rarely Bring Charges In College Rape Cases

    "The survey of six schools in Illinois and Indiana found that police investigated 171 reported sex crimes since fall 2005, with 12 resulting in arrests and four in convictions. Only one of the convictions stemmed from a student-on-student attack, the most common type of assault... The rate of arrests and convictions is far below the average for rapes reported nationally... An estimated 95 percent of college students who are victimized do not report sexual-related crimes to law enforcement, according to a study funded by the Justice Department." Campus sex assaults: - tribunedigital-chicagotribune
    How is that different than assuming that "He's guilty." is just as relevant??

    If the numbers you quote are accurate, then there could be either huge difficulty in getting the evidence needed to convict or a whole lot of false accusations - EITHER ONE could be the case (or there could be other reasons, such manpower limits, lack of access to the needed tech, etc). The solution isn't to make it easier to convict based on bad evidence, the solution is to prosecute the false accusations with JAIL TIME, improve the investigative techniques needed, educate our young people about what EXACTLY constitutes rape (Is waking up with a strange guy in your bed, covered in bodily fluids after a night of drinking grounds for a rape accusation??) and make sure that these kind of investigations are done by PROFESSIONALS in the field, not well-meaning amateurs.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say | Fox News

    So this is where we are now with college rape cases? WTF?
    While I disagree with the standard, I have no issue with a college like Amherst deciding to use this standard to decide the issue as it is a private university.

    I have a more significant issue with a State run school taking action against an individual that results in explusion or suspension for an act that is a criminal issue. Rape is a felony and a crime, and a state school should let what legal action occur rather than exterting a punishment upon the individual coming from a basis that the individual is assumed guilty.

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    By the way, if there is over-enforcement of rape accusations now, it is because for many years there were many incidents of under-enforcement and cover-ups in the past.
    Absolutely agree with this, but one wrong doesn't right the other wrong.

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Agreed. Unfortunately, the human species seems utterly incapable of letting the pendulum stop in the middle.
    But we can work towards that goal and start speaking out against things cause it to swing even further (something liberals used to be REALLY good at and are now REALLY bad at).
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    While I disagree with the standard, I have no issue with a college like Amherst deciding to use this standard to decide the issue as it is a private university.

    I have a more significant issue with a State run school taking action against an individual that results in explusion or suspension for an act that is a criminal issue. Rape is a felony and a crime, and a state school should let what legal action occur rather than exterting a punishment upon the individual coming from a basis that the individual is assumed guilty.
    They will most likely change their standard after losing a few million dollars to lawsuits.

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'm well aware of this, but a lot of it was not reporting by victims. You can't blame the system for that. But putting the accused in a situation where he can't adequately defend himself is not the right way to fix the problem. What we have here is a built in bias AND agenda.
    There is also the university's conflict of interest. Expelling many students for rape made them look bad, until the issue has been made more public recently, it looked worse to the public and funders than failing to adequately investigate or expel rapists did.

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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    Or, you know, raise him right, teach him how consent works, be responsible with alcohol, and be careful who he goes home with.

    Look, there is no easy answer to dealing with alleged rape cases. The overwhelming majority of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. So inevitably, unless the rape was video taped or done in front of witnesses, it is going to be a case of he said, she said. Because of that most rape cases don't even go to court, let alone end in conviction.

    I certainly don't want to abandon our "guilty beyond all reasonable doubt" standard but one of the consequences of that is most rapists will remain free. And yes, sometimes a woman will falsely accuse a man of rape. But the crime of false accusation also cannot easily be proven beyond all reasonable doubt because, once again, it is usually a he said she said case.

    In the end, you will usually end up with a rape victim who feels she never received justice and is forced to keep attending the same school as her rapist unless she drops out or you end up with man who was falsely accused and his life is likely ruined to some degree.

    Both scenarios suck. There isn't an easy solution to it. But I really am not comfortable with universities being the ones to handle these investigations.
    Who says he wasn't raised right of knew how consent works? He was drunk, the chick came on to him and they bumped uglies. Believe it or not, that isn't exactly an unusual set of circumstances and the chick was every bit the willing participant in the event that he was. What happened after that was that she had misgivings. That also happens on both sides of the equation with some regularity. The chick chose to **** the guy. It's not like she was buying a car and some kind of "lemon law" applies.

    When you have a scenario where both parties agreed to a particular act and one or both later regret it the proper role of the authorities is to tell them to sort it out between themselves. It's called taking personal responsibility for your decisions and unless women are determined to be incapable of handling personal responsibility then once it's determined that everything occurred with mutual consent you don't set up a one sided reconciliation system.

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