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Thread: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

  1. #111
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Even there there is a difference. Is he blacked out but still functioning? Or, is he blacked out and passed out and things are being done to him while he is passive? (Generic question)
    Those are good questions but my point is that the answers would be evidence, regardless of what those answers specifically were.
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    His lawsuit that he was EXPELLED WITHOUT CAUSE for a crime he DID NOT commit? Maybe if we started banning blacks from universities for crimes they MIGHT have committed you would sing a different tune? Or gays? Or women? But it doesn't count this time because it was a man?
    In this "John Doe's" own words:

    Doe said he was not the kind of person who would do such a thing. But he told the disciplinary board he was so drunk that night he had no memory of the encounter.
    So, he doesn't know what he did that night because he was staggering, blackout drunk, but it couldn't possibly have been what he was accused of.

    Right.

    And he bases all of this on the text message records of the girl he allegedly raped.

    The girl says, of those text messages:

    “I didn’t want to address what had happened to me and I was in no position yet to accept that it had been rape. So in my text messaging [to counselor] I only said things about the hook-up as if it had been consensual.”
    So I'm not willing to accept the argument (especially not in CAPS, as though it's some sort of well established fact) that this guy did nothing wrong.

    Maybe he did.

    Maybe he didn't.

    But there is definitely a lot gray here.

    And understand that this guy is not a defendant in a court of law.

    The standard necessary to take administrative action against a student accused of rape is a lot lower than the standard necessary to convict a defendant of rape in a court of law.

    Sorry dude, but the business is in the right here.
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    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

  3. #113
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    'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    In this "John Doe's" own words:



    So, he doesn't know what he did that night because he was staggering, blackout drunk, but it couldn't possibly have been what he was accused of.

    Right.

    And he bases all of this on the text message records of the girl he allegedly raped.

    The girl says, of those text messages:



    So I'm not willing to accept the argument (especially not in CAPS, as though it's some sort of well established fact) that this guy did nothing wrong.

    Maybe he did.

    Maybe he didn't.

    But there is definitely a lot gray here.

    And understand that this guy is not a defendant in a court of law.

    The standard necessary to take administrative action against a student accused of rape is a lot lower than the standard necessary to convict a defendant of rape in a court of law.

    Sorry dude, but the business is in the right here.
    So to YOU and the BUSINESS...he is guilty. No proof of it. Not a lick. You don't know for a fact he raped her. Neither does the university. And you act like just because he isn't NAMED that his future isn't in jeopardy. No. He is getting expelled and THAT is on his record. And people will ask why EVERY time he applies or does anything. Can he LIE? Will the "university" reveal why they kicked him out with NO evidence and NO conviction?

    Basically now if a girl at this school is competing with a male or is upset or feels regret she can CLAIM rape and all she needs is circumstantial evidence and bye bye to the guy. Doesn't matter if he actually did it or not. You call that justice? But let me guess...it doesn't matter to you because this doesn't represent injustice? It wouldn't be completely different if it were not a female? And what is the lesson from this event?

    Don't associate with college women? Don't get drunk? And defiantly don't get drunk around college women?

    What a crock.

    Oh

    And never mind that she has no evidence he raped her either. When did this come out? How long after?

    And the best you have for his expulsion is "maybe he did and maybe he didn't?"

    Are you ****ing kidding me?
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And both of her claims, though contradictory, are evidence
    So is her word more trustworthy than his?
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And both of her claims, though contradictory, are evidence
    Which one seems more credible? By the other evidence gathered, and when all taken together, it would seem the one where she admitted it was consensual.

    I suspect the college chose the other because it was expedient for them.
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Why do we, as a society, accept a private entity doling out justice regarding a criminal matter?

    If one student murders another student, are we merely satisfied with expulsion? No, we're not. Rape is a serious crime, so we're told, and anywhere else we would demand proper criminal prosecution.

    If an employee of a company were to rape another employee within a company facility, would we be satisfied... or even allow... only an in-house investigation and punishment? Again, no, we would not. And reasonably so.

    Why the double-standard? Because one private business is a cultured university and the other is something else?

    If anything, by continuing to allow and defend this double-standard is a clear sign that we still don't treat women with the respect in which we think we do. We're still willing to dumb down this crime when we wouldn't for other crimes.
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Which one seems more credible? By the other evidence gathered, and when all taken together, it would seem the one where she admitted it was consensual.

    I suspect the college chose the other because it was expedient for them.
    And it wouldn't draw unwanted attention. Better to give in than to be seen as promoting sexist "rape culture." Right?
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Why do we, as a society, accept a private entity doling out justice regarding a criminal matter?

    If one student murders another student, are we merely satisfied with expulsion? No, we're not. Rape is a serious crime, so we're told, and anywhere else we would demand proper criminal prosecution.

    If an employee of a company were to rape another employee within a company facility, would we be satisfied... or even allow... only an in-house investigation and punishment? Again, no, we would not. And reasonably so.

    Why the double-standard? Because one private business is a cultured university and the other is something else?

    If anything, by continuing to allow and defend this double-standard is a clear sign that we still don't treat women with the respect in which we think we do. We're still willing to dumb down this crime when we wouldn't for other crimes.
    "Cultured"
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    Re: 'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    And the best you have for his expulsion is "maybe he did and maybe he didn't?"

    Are you ****ing kidding me?
    If we were talking about a court of law I'd agree with you.

    Not enough there to convict the guy.

    But we're talking about a private concern making decisions that are in the best interest of the profit motive.

    And to be clear, they aren't just making decisions "out of nowhere".

    The kid was accused of rape. He can't establish to anyone's satisfaction that he didn't rape the girl. He doesn't even remember the night in question. His best defense is, "Hey now, I'm just not that kind of guy".

    If the school allows the kid to stay they've got egg on their face.

    They don't need the negative publicity.

    It could cost them money.

    If I were accused of rape tomorrow my employer would fire me for the same reasons.

    I work in financial services.

    The perception of trustworthiness and good judgement are important facets of our brand.

    If the company is employing accused felons, what kind of message does that send to customers who are trusting us with billions of dollars?

    Same thing for this private school.

    It's a Little Ivy, the students and faculty it's able to attract and the tuition it's able to charge are directly tied to it's reputation.

    It sucks when the little man gets run over by the bus, but they're running a business, not a charity.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

  10. #120
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    'Accused is guilty': Campus rape tribunals punish without proof, critics say

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    If we were talking about a court of law I'd agree with you.

    Not enough there to convict the guy.

    But we're talking about a private concern making decisions that are in the best interest of the profit motive.

    And to be clear, they aren't just making decisions "out of nowhere".

    The kid was accused of rape. He can't establish to anyone's satisfaction that he didn't rape the girl. He doesn't even remember the night in question. His best defense is, "Hey now, I'm just not that kind of guy".

    If the school allows the kid to stay they've got egg on their face.

    They don't need the negative publicity.

    It could cost them money.

    If I were accused of rape tomorrow my employer would fire me for the same reasons.

    I work in financial services.

    The perception of trustworthiness and good judgement are important facets of our brand.

    If the company is employing accused felons, what kind of message does that send to customers who are trusting us with billions of dollars?

    Same thing for this private school.

    It's a Little Ivy, the students and faculty it's able to attract and the tuition it's able to charge are directly tied to it's reputation.

    It sucks when the little man gets run over by the bus, but they're running a business, not a charity.
    Let me ask you one VERY simple question: how would you feel if you were accused of rape and didn't do it? And specifically accused for a point in time when you were drunk?

    Would your defense be...oh well I'm expelled I can't prove my innocence? Never mind that your guilt can't be ascertained by the university. Would you be so quick to concede that YOUR are a rapist?

    Now. Let's look at this more. They couldn't convict him of rape. They EXPELLED him for it. They don't know he raped anyone. They don't have evidence. And now EVERYONE that knows this kid or has any information about his assumes he is a rapist. It doesn't matter if they didn't release his name. You think we can't find out?

    He has to explain for the REST of his LIFE why he was expelled. And he was NEVER sentenced or found guilty. The only reason? Some girl THINKS he raped her. You are calling that justice? Acceptable?

    Let's not forget that by ALLOWING this...you just set a precedent for ANY school to expel ANYONE who is arrested for ANY reason regardless of any conviction. You call that freedom? Would you support a company firing an employee who is arrested?

    And it doesn't matter that this school is private. The kid was not found guilty. In the eyes of the law he is innocent. He was expelled for nothing.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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