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Thread: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    You don't seem to understand what a tremendous burden those who are here illegally put on the education and healthcare systems. This is because you don't live in a border state. Easy for you to sit in Tennessee and indulge yourself in hyperbole.
    If anyone wants to have a serious discussion, that's fine. But we just DO HAVE those millions of people who ARE here. If you really don't want them to get healthcare, then what is the option except we let human beings die for lack of care? If you don't want to educate the children of illegals, then what is the option for them when they grow up here? It's not working a job, or a job is FAR less likely, so what is the option if not crime?

    You're right I don't live in a border state, but the problem is difficult and one liners and slogans aren't going to solve it. We rolled out a red carpet for them, thousands of employers provide them millions of jobs (nearly every roof in my neighborhood was replaced by a team of illegals), no one in government actually cares, the employers love it, and these people have families, and they need what we all need - food, education, lodging, healthcare.

    Someone make a serious proposal and we can debate it. What can I say?

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    What would "I" do?. I would do what my grand parents did. Work. Raise a family that works, owns businesses, graduates from college, serves our nations armed forces and instills its values to next generations.
    It's funny how many times I've asked this question and conservatives really don't want to give a direct answer. The question was what you'd do "in their shoes" sitting in Mexico or Guatemala or somewhere.

    I get it - if you're any kind of decent father/son/husband, you'd do what the millions have done and walk across, take the jobs being offered, and give your family the best life you can possibly give them IN THE U.S. And you'd ignore immigration laws same way the employers do.

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If anyone wants to have a serious discussion, that's fine. But we just DO HAVE those millions of people who ARE here. If you really don't want them to get healthcare, then what is the option except we let human beings die for lack of care? If you don't want to educate the children of illegals, then what is the option for them when they grow up here? It's not working a job, or a job is FAR less likely, so what is the option if not crime?

    You're right I don't live in a border state, but the problem is difficult and one liners and slogans aren't going to solve it. We rolled out a red carpet for them, thousands of employers provide them millions of jobs (nearly every roof in my neighborhood was replaced by a team of illegals), no one in government actually cares, the employers love it, and these people have families, and they need what we all need - food, education, lodging, healthcare.

    Someone make a serious proposal and we can debate it. What can I say?
    That is harsh. I'm not aware of anyone proposing denying emergency care. How about they get their care and then if they are determined to be illegal, they are deported once they are discharged from the hospital. You were talking about people dieing for a lack of care.

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Are you being deliberately wrong? The link was to debate on a bill that addresses LEGAL immigrants. What do you expect?
    No I think you're being deliberatly wrong. The current bill does not address legal immigrants, which is why the video of Session stated in the first 20 seconds:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sen. Jeff Sessions
    Sessions:

    My amendment would simply say that if you are here illegally, did not enter legally, and you get a lawful status here in the United States, you then to not qualify for the Federal programs of Obamacare and Medicaid.
    You see, you only amend a bill with things that it does NOT have. If the original bill stated what you claim, an amendment of the same would not be needed.



    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And the Dream Act excludes convicted criminals, so that's wrong. You're O for 2 so far.
    The perhaps you can explain why the INS release 60 thousand of them from jails into the population. Actually, you're 0 for 2, but nice projection there.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So why did illegal immigration go negative during the recession?
    You'll need to provide a legit citation showing it did go negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, you don't like Pew. How about the Census: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/fi...ll_pe_2011.pdf
    Now you start with the strawman - I never said I didn't like Pew. What I said was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    Polls are a snapshot in time and many times the snapshot methodology isn't provided or is biased in it's questions.
    But don't let that stop you from mis-characterizing my statement in order to forward your intellectually dishonest and biased point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If you've got other evidence, feel free to provide it, but burying your head in the sand and saying "I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NANANANANANANNA" isn't actually a legitimate argument.
    When can I expect to see pictures of you eating dirt? There's a study saying it's good for you...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm not offended at all. I'm just a person who tries to make decisions based on the best data and evidence available. If you have any actual evidence I'd love to see it.
    Fact is I don't need evidence to show how ridiculous your positions are. If I needed evidence that would suggest you actually have a leg to stand on, which you don't. :
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    That's why this thread is about eh laws that allowed them to be released. We have some bad laws/policies in place that need to be changed to stop allowing this kind of thing to happen. We have the opportunity to remove some "undesirables" from our society in the same manner that most nations do and we are failing to do so. The story highlighted one person, but the problem of released illegal immigrants committing additional crimes after their release is well documented and fairly frequent.

    Just because the problem exists in other areas is NOT justification for allowing it this area. In the case of illegal immigrants, if they are here illegally, then the basic standard for dealing them is to send them back to their nation of origin ASAP. That's the MINIMUM that should happen. Just releasing them is STUPID, regardless of whether they have committed any other crimes or not. If you are here illegally and you get arrested for it, then you should be returned to your nation of origin as soon as you have been convicted of this crime.
    As an aside, the OP was an attempt to blame this on Obama and the liberals, but that's not the issue.

    For the rest, I mostly agree. And the problem is we just do not have the resources to jail all these people once they're detained and until they get through the process. We could change the laws and essentially do away with due process, or build a few dozen more prisons, or double or triple the immigration judges and all the rest. But we haven't done that.

    As we speak and for the past several decades at least, being here illegally is a minor crime, and what it would require is a change in the law to make it a more serious crime, then dedicating a lot of resources to deal with that decision. It would require treating criminal employers at least as seriously as the illegals they hire because that is the draw. We'd have to hire a ton of interior enforcement to enforce those laws and levy huge penalties on those employers who break the law. We haven't done that. Etc.

    It's just frustrating that these serious problems get reduced to soundbites, or in this thread an inflammatory headline that makes people dumber on the issue and does nothing to figure out how to solve this serious problem.

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's funny how many times I've asked this question and conservatives really don't want to give a direct answer. The question was what you'd do "in their shoes" sitting in Mexico or Guatemala or somewhere.

    I get it - if you're any kind of decent father/son/husband, you'd do what the millions have done and walk across, take the jobs being offered, and give your family the best life you can possibly give them IN THE U.S. And you'd ignore immigration laws same way the employers do.
    Wrong. I would not trespass and take a job under the table and live like a hermit so as to no get caught and sent back.
    I would come, get my paperwork and work on becoming a citizen. Just like my grand parents did.

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's funny how many times I've asked this question and conservatives really don't want to give a direct answer. The question was what you'd do "in their shoes" sitting in Mexico or Guatemala or somewhere.

    I get it - if you're any kind of decent father/son/husband, you'd do what the millions have done and walk across, take the jobs being offered, and give your family the best life you can possibly give them IN THE U.S. And you'd ignore immigration laws same way the employers do.
    Not true, I've answered you directly on this and the answer is not to pay 5-10, 000 dollars to abandon my family and my country to jump the border. Good grief, there are more countries close to Mexico or Guatemala that have jobs that they can easily immigrate legally to and not pay a coyote.

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    No I think you're being deliberatly wrong. The current bill does not address legal immigrants, which is why the video of Session stated in the first 20 seconds:
    You quoted the relevant part: "that if you are here illegally, did not enter legally, and you get a lawful status here in the United States, you then to not qualify for the Federal programs of Obamacare and Medicaid."

    Not sure what to say. If a person gets lawful status, they are a legal resident. They're no longer an "illegal." And if you don't want the kids of legal residents to get healthcare, what do we do when they get sick or mom gets sick? Dump them on the ER I guess. Do you have another suggestion?

    The perhaps you can explain why the INS release 60 thousand of them from jails into the population. Actually, you're 0 for 2, but nice projection there.
    I don't know where you get that number, but what I know is the Dream Act excludes convicted criminals. You called those being released "Dreamers" - that's wrong. Here's a summary:

    This initiative, announced on June 15, offers a two-year, renewable reprieve from deportation to unauthorized immigrants who are under the age of 31; entered the United States before age 16; have lived continuously in the country for at least five years; have not been convicted of a felony, a “significant” misdemeanor, or three other misdemeanors; and are currently in school, graduated from high school, earned a GED, or served in the military. Within this population of potential beneficiaries, however, are three distinct groups:
    So those released from prisons aren't "Dreamers."

    You'll need to provide a legit citation showing it did go negative.
    I have provided two - Pew and the Census. Provide your own evidence if you don't think either is "legitimate."

    Now you start with the strawman - I never said I didn't like Pew. What I said was:
    You said the polls or surveys are a snapshot. Of course - we need the estimates for different years, so yes, there will be different snapshots to tell us how the population has changed. This is necessary and obvious.

    Second you said that the methodology could be a problem. Fine, that's true enough, so what is it about Pew or Census that you think biases the results? Other than you don't like the results, of course.

    But don't let that stop you from mis-characterizing my statement in order to forward your intellectually dishonest and biased point of view.

    When can I expect to see pictures of you eating dirt? There's a study saying it's good for you...
    It's very simple - I try to find the best evidence available. If you don't like the evidence I have provided, the typical way to contest it is to provide other, more authoritative evidence, or at least make a persuasive case for why you reject the evidence I presented. All you've done is say, essentially, I don't need no facts, I have my opinion.

    Fact is I don't need evidence to show how ridiculous your positions are. If I needed evidence that would suggest you actually have a leg to stand on, which you don't. :
    OK, so you've made it official. Thanks. I should have read this first and saved myself some typing. You don't need evidence. Got it!

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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You quoted the relevant part: "that if you are here illegally, did not enter legally, and you get a lawful status here in the United States, you then to not qualify for the Federal programs of Obamacare and Medicaid."
    Which is still irrelevant, it's cute you think it's relevant though.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Not sure what to say. If a person gets lawful status, they are a legal resident. They're no longer an "illegal."
    Not until the SCOTUS says it's Constitutional they won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't know where you get that number, but what I know is the Dream Act excludes convicted criminals.
    You didn't answer my question, though I'm not surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So those released from prisons aren't "Dreamers."
    Ah, so Obama just released criminals back on the streets with no hope of ever becoming legal, just because we need what... more criminals to commit more crime? Are you listening to yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I have provided two - Pew and the Census. Provide your own evidence if you don't think either is "legitimate."
    Which changes nothing I've already stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Second you said that the methodology could be a problem. Fine, that's true enough
    Good glad you agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's very simple - I try to find the best evidence available.
    The best evidence available is you should eat dirt. Will you?

    Get a better argument and I'll provide some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, so you've made it official.
    When someone says "got it" they normally don't which is true in your case yet again, and it's always been official - it's never been UN-official. Please do try to keep up.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: 121 murders attributed to illegals released by Obama administration

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Not true, I've answered you directly on this and the answer is not to pay 5-10, 000 dollars to abandon my family and my country to jump the border. Good grief, there are more countries close to Mexico or Guatemala that have jobs that they can easily immigrate legally to and not pay a coyote.
    OK, name one that even comes close to offering the same opportunities as the U.S. Honduras? Good choice with the highest murder rate in the world, controlled by the gangs. El Salvador is also good - the murder rate there is just 10 times that of the U.S.

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