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Thread: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

  1. #81
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Because they were neither inhumane nor criminal. In fact, they were carefully controlled by the Justice Department in order to make sure that they never risked becoming so.
    Oh yea.... "Carefully controlled". So "carefully controlled" that why from the latest report it was found that integerators locked up a naked man to the floor and he later died of hypothermia. And dont forget one of our "sites was run by a junior officer with no relevant experience, and that this person had “issues” in his background that should have disqualified him from working for the CIA at all." had a detainee loose his eye while in custody, oh yea and we forced food up peoples asses without any medical need to do so, oh yea and we sexually assaulted many as well. The Most Gruesome Moments in the CIA

    But hey, it was also found that "The CIA repeatedly provided inaccurate information to the Department of Justice (DOJ), impeding a proper legal analysis of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program.". So I guess there goes the whole "carefully controlled by the Justice Department" point.. And its also important to note that "CIA detainees were subjected to coercive interrogation techniques that had not been approved by the Department of Justice or had not been authorized by CIA Headquarters."... CIA interrogation report: The 20 key findings - BBC News

    But not lets forget: "For five years as a researcher for Human Rights Watch and reporter, John Sifton helped investigate homicides resulting from the Bush administration's torture policy. His findings include:
    • An estimated 100 detainees have died during interrogations, some who were clearly tortured to death.
    • The Bush Justice Department failed to investigate and prosecute alleged murders even when the CIA inspector general referred a case.
    • Sifton’s request for specific information on cases was rebuffed by the Bush Justice Department, though it was “familiar with the cases.”"
    The Bush Administration Homicides - The Daily Beast


    And, more generally, because going after people who do dangerous work for you for doing it in the way that you told them to is not only wrong, but self-destructive.
    Sorry. I dont hold this view. I dont hold the view that torturing people, sometime to death is "dangerous work" I believe its inhumane, evil, and all around cowardly. It serves no purpose.



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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Oh yea.... "Carefully controlled". So "carefully controlled" that why from the latest report it was found that integerators locked up a naked man to the floor and he later died of hypothermia. And dont forget one of our "sites was run by a junior officer with no relevant experience, and that this person had “issues” in his background that should have disqualified him from working for the CIA at all." had a detainee loose his eye while in custody, oh yea and we forced food up peoples asses without any medical need to do so, oh yea and we sexually assaulted many as well. The Most Gruesome Moments in the CIA

    But hey, it was also found that "The CIA repeatedly provided inaccurate information to the Department of Justice (DOJ), impeding a proper legal analysis of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program.". So I guess there goes the whole "carefully controlled by the Justice Department" point.. And its also important to note that "CIA detainees were subjected to coercive interrogation techniques that had not been approved by the Department of Justice or had not been authorized by CIA Headquarters."... CIA interrogation report: The 20 key findings - BBC News

    But not lets forget: "For five years as a researcher for Human Rights Watch and reporter, John Sifton helped investigate homicides resulting from the Bush administration's torture policy. His findings include:
    • An estimated 100 detainees have died during interrogations, some who were clearly tortured to death.
    • The Bush Justice Department failed to investigate and prosecute alleged murders even when the CIA inspector general referred a case.
    • Sifton’s request for specific information on cases was rebuffed by the Bush Justice Department, though it was “familiar with the cases.”"
    The Bush Administration Homicides - The Daily Beast
    Sure, we interrogated Abu Zubaydah after he was brought in, despite the fact that he was wounded. We didn't have the luxury of the time necessary to wait for him to feel hunky dory. Yup, a guy died (on accident) when his room got cold over night. Far from being an intended or acceptable result of an interrogation program that incident had strong repercussions inside the CIA, leading to a review that uncovered abuses in detention and interrogation procedures, and forcing the agency to change those procedures. Which is exactly what you would want to happen in that instance.

    Other than the media outlet, this, I think, fairly well captures the report:

    ....The report will conclude that the CIA’s interrogation techniques never yielded any intelligence about imminent terrorist attacks. Investigators didn’t conclude that no information came from the program at all. Rather, the committee rejects the CIA’s contention that information came from the program that couldn’t have been obtained through other means....
    so, it doesn't count that the program actually helped stop attacks and save lives, because maybe they would have told us if we had first sent them on a 6 month all-expenses paid vacation to Tahiti. Oh, you don't think that would have worked? Well did you try it???.




    Sorry. I dont hold this view. I dont hold the view that torturing people, sometime to death is "dangerous work" I believe its inhumane, evil, and all around cowardly. It serves no purpose.
    I have literally watched actual torture (much less ETOs) save lives, likely including my own. The idea that there is no trade-off between tough interrogation techniques and intelligence gathered may comfort those who don't want to recognize trade-offs for their policy proposals, but it does not match actual reality. The worst thing about torture is that it actually does work.
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Many americans and most of the government condone torture, as long as it's not to anybody they know.

    The legal principles developed at Nuremberg are now considered quaint and out of style.
    Wouldn't it be nice if those so enamored with the illegality of torture also paid the same dedication when the govt go outside the lines of the Constitution?
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    It is possible to hate the sin and still love the sinner.

    I'm gonna go out a limb here and say think I speak for DA60 when I say....I love my country, but I will not blindly forgive its sins, lest it becomes the very thing we claim to hate.
    You nailed it...thanks.
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Revenge is a sin, retribution is a sin. I suppose we should have just turned the other cheek on 9/12?
    Who said anything about turning the other cheek? I just think that your emotional need for revenge and retribution doesn't effectively deal with the problem.

    So instead of just calling you out, here is my proposal...

    Find a way to reduce or effectively eliminate our need for oil. We have spent $1.6 trillion on wars in the middle east. Could we have achieved the goal of energy independence for that much? I dunno, maybe, maybe not, but the result (spending $1.6 trillion on energy independence) imo would have done more to reduce the capabilities of groups and countries that we call our enemies (given that most fund their economies with oil and without our demand markets would fall dramatically) without ever putting an American life at risk and permanently screwing up the lives of those "lucky" enough to make it home.

    All so you can have your revenge and retribution.

    Now if you want to go to Afghanistan (or wherever) yourself and persecute your revenge....You have my unfettered support . You want to send my Nephew (a Marine) to do it for you, I don't think so .
    Last edited by csbrown28; 06-17-15 at 12:29 PM.
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Who said anything about turning the other cheek? I just think that your emotional need for revenge and retribution doesn't effectively deal with the problem.

    So instead of just calling you out, here is my proposal...

    Find a way to reduce or effectively eliminate our need for oil. We have spent $1.6 trillion on wars in the middle east. Could we have achieved the goal of energy independence for that much? I dunno, maybe, maybe not, but the result (spending $1.6 trillion on energy independence) imo would have done more to reduce the capabilities of groups and countries that we call our enemies (given that most fund their economies with oil and without our demand markets would fall dramatically) without ever putting an American life at risk and permanently screwing up the lives of those "lucky" enough to make it home.

    All so you can have your revenge and retribution.

    Now if you want to go to Afghanistan (or wherever) yourself and persecute your revenge....You have my unfettered support . You want to send my Nephew (a Marine) to do it for you, I don't think so .
    Find me a recruiter that will take a 52 year old, and I will sign up today. And yes on 9/11 I was still too old. I have buried war dead in my family, during my life time. So don't play that one with me.
    Also, we are getting less and less oil from the ME. Do your home work on that.
    "MY" revenge is not what is called for either, its a national revenge. A national effort to eradicate what claims to what us dead.
    Speaking of emotion. You have much more on the issue than I do.

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Find me a recruiter that will take a 52 year old, and I will sign up today. And yes on 9/11 I was still too old. I have buried war dead in my family, during my life time. So don't play that one with me.
    Also, we are getting less and less oil from the ME. Do your home work on that.
    "MY" revenge is not what is called for either, its a national revenge. A national effort to eradicate what claims to what us dead.
    Speaking of emotion. You have much more on the issue than I do.
    You dont need to sign up, just get on a plane fly over there and join or start an army of your own....Your call.

    While I think it's tragic that you've buried war dead in your family and I offer my sincere condolences, I would ask, though I can anticipate your answer, was it worth it? I mean, unless we are talking about WWII or perhaps the Cold War, I can't think of a single war after WWII that was worth it's cost in American lives.

    We're getting less oil from the ME? That is your response? So what? oil demand has continued to rise and when you add in the fact that it was ~$1.50 up to ~2005 and after it's averaged over ~$2.50, I'd say there is more money than ever flowing from the US to the ME. Add to that, the fact that we consume more than 3 times the next highest consumer (China) I'd say we're largely responsible for the wealth that flows into the hands of the people that "want us dead". We are funding the capability to make war against us.

    "National Revenge"? That is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Revenge is emotional response. There is nothing rational about that word. Nothing you've said is rational, it's all emotional despite accusing me of the same, though you didn't give an example.

    How does "National Revenge" accomplish anything rational? Try to think more than 1 layer deep. If you eliminate today's threats, what about the next generation of children that grow up hating so much they are willing to strap bombs to themselves just to kill innocents? Your "revenge" doesn't deal with that problem, it only makes it worse, that is, unless you are prepared to commit genocide in order to accomplish your goals?
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    You dont need to sign up, just get on a plane fly over there and join or start an army of your own....Your call.

    While I think it's tragic that you've buried war dead in your family and I offer my sincere condolences, I would ask, though I can anticipate your answer, was it worth it? I mean, unless we are talking about WWII or perhaps the Cold War, I can't think of a single war after WWII that was worth it's cost in American lives.

    We're getting less oil from the ME? That is your response? So what? oil demand has continued to rise and when you add in the fact that it was ~$1.50 up to ~2005 and after it's averaged over ~$2.50, I'd say there is more money than ever flowing from the US to the ME. Add to that, the fact that we consume more than 3 times the next highest consumer (China) I'd say we're largely responsible for the wealth that flows into the hands of the people that "want us dead". We are funding the capability to make war against us.

    "National Revenge"? That is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Revenge is emotional response. There is nothing rational about that word. Nothing you've said is rational, it's all emotional despite accusing me of the same, though you didn't give an example.

    How does "National Revenge" accomplish anything rational? Try to think more than 1 layer deep. If you eliminate today's threats, what about the next generation of children that grow up hating so much they are willing to strap bombs to themselves just to kill innocents? Your "revenge" doesn't deal with that problem, it only makes it worse, that is, unless you are prepared to commit genocide in order to accomplish your goals?
    Not really a war junkie like those others. Which I guess is your que to call me a coward or sissy.
    Was Vietnam worth it? Hmmm, his death was tragic and no. My cousin was worth more than all the hundreds of thousands of NVC killed. Damage to our family was immense.
    Don't like national revenge? Well what did you call it on the day after when everyone was screaming for someones head.

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    You dont need to sign up, just get on a plane fly over there and join or start an army of your own....Your call.
    While I think it's tragic that you've buried war dead in your family and I offer my sincere condolences, I would ask, though I can anticipate your answer, was it worth it?

    I've deployed multiple times, and buried more than a few friends. I don't recall us ever mass-murdering civilians for the delight of doing so, a'la the accusation that we are becoming what we oppose.

    I mean, unless we are talking about WWII or perhaps the Cold War, I can't think of a single war after WWII that was worth it's cost in American lives.
    Well, we haven't had a "war" after WWII, but if you are talking about military campaigns (which is a fair approximation), I would say that Bosnia, Somalia, Desert Storm, Korea, and a few others are "worth it".

    The problem becomes that "worth it" is a measurement that has to take into account results - whether or not you won - and that is impossible to fully foretell (as are casualties) when you begin a campaign. In 2009/2010? I would have absolutely told you that Iraq was worth the sacrifices I'd been there for. Then we tossed it away. Is something that was worth it still worth it if you piss away the gains? Does that act retroactively? I'm not sure how you leverage that estimate in a manner that is useful for decision-making.

    We're getting less oil from the ME? That is your response?
    And it's a good one. We are.

    So what? oil demand has continued to rise and when you add in the fact that it was ~$1.50 up to ~2005 and after it's averaged over ~$2.50, I'd say there is more money than ever flowing from the US to the ME.
    Well that's an interesting claim - can you demonstrate it?

    Add to that, the fact that we consume more than 3 times the next highest consumer (China)
    Awesome. Good for us.

    I'd say we're largely responsible for the wealth that flows into the hands of the people that "want us dead". We are funding the capability to make war against us.
    See: Foreign Debt, China, US Treasury Holdings

    National Revenge"? That is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Revenge is emotional response. There is nothing rational about that word.
    Actually the revenge instinct evolved as a rational cost-benefit equation with prohibitive/warning functions. If you are perceived as potentially likely to respond to someone stealing from you by murdering them, then you will reduce the benefit to others of attempting to steal from you. Result: you don't get robbed.

    It's interesting stuff

    ...What evolutionary purpose does the impulse for revenge serve?
    It's got costs, but it does look like, from the best models we have, that individuals with a taste for punishing those who have harmed them could become a major part of a group. The way revenge seems to operate in our minds today really does have a functional ring to it.

    The loudest way to exact revenge is to make a person's gains less profitable. You have reached into their accounting system and changed what they've gained from harming you.

    The interesting thing is that the desire for revenge goes up if there are people who have watched you be mistreated, because in that case, the costs have gotten bigger. If you don't take revenge, there's a chance that people will learn that you are the type of person who will put up with mistreatment. That is the kind of phenomenon that you would expect if there is a functional logic underlying the system that produces revenge. This is a well-tuned system that's highly specific in what it cares about and the kinds of responses that it generates.

    If it's so well tuned in humans, do we see this sort of behavior in other animals?
    Absolutely. Imposing costs on individuals that have imposed costs on you is really common in nonhuman animals. We see it in birds. We see it in fish. It does actually seem to change them. It produces reformed behavior—the way it ought to if it's designed for deterrence. ...
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28
    How does "National Revenge" accomplish anything rational?
    In this case, if the action of "Launch a major terrorist attack in CONUS" results in "Everyone in your group and everyone allied with your group gets utterly obliterated and has to spend the next two decades in desperate hiding and fear of a random missile finding them at any time", then the potential benefits of "Launch a major terrorist attack in CONUS" are significantly reduced relative to the costs.


    Try to think more than 1 layer deep. If you eliminate today's threats, what about the next generation of children that grow up hating so much they are willing to strap bombs to themselves just to kill innocents?
    Agreed that CT is not a holistic solution. But we are unwilling to absorb the costs of a holistic solution, and so that is the solution that (at current and for the forseeable future) we will use.

    Your "revenge" doesn't deal with that problem, it only makes it worse,
    Depends.

    ...The KGB has adopted novel, brutal and apparently effective methods of dealing with terrorists who attack Soviet interests in the Middle East, an Israeli newspaper reported Monday.

    The Jerusalem Post said the Soviet secret police last year secured the release of three kidnaped Soviet diplomats in Beirut by castrating a relative of a radical Lebanese Shia Muslim leader, sending him the severed organs and then shooting the relative in the head....

    Parts of the man's body, the paper said, were then sent to the Hezbollah leader with a warning that he would lose other relatives in a similar fashion if the three remaining Soviet diplomats were not immediately released. They were quickly freed.

    The newspaper quoted "observers in Jerusalem" as saying: "This is the way the Soviets operate. They do things--they don't talk. And this is the language Hezbollah understands."...



    Violence and power are languages that this part of the world understands and respects. You aren't going to get to the soft-lovey-feel-good parts unless you first establish that you are willing and capable of murdering everyone that chooses to oppose you.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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