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Thread: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

  1. #101
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You were the one who tried to make having a legitimate opinion on this one hinged in part on connection to the military.
    Re-read, I never mentioned the military until CC brought it up. What I said was, if he wanted revenge/ retribution, than he should get on a plane and go to the ME and find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I have a crap ton of buddies who are Marines, like me, and like your nephew. They want to go, and are, in fact, pissed off at the ones who get to go. The Peacetime Marine Corps sucks. MEU's suck.
    Not sure how what a bunch of kids want is relevant at all to anything I've said.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    YOU are the one who made the claim. Can you back it up?
    I don't need to as it is a distraction as it was ancillary to the point I was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Your claim was that we needed to achieve oil independence and that we were sending more money than ever to the Middle East. The fact that we are importing less energy than before due to domestic production is relevant to the first claim, and your inability to demonstrate it's accuracy is relevant to the second.
    Again, reading is fundamental....

    I said that if we spent the money we've spent on recent wars ($1.6 trillion) that we could have used that money to pursue energy independence and done/ do more to degrade the military capability of our foes than creating thousands of Gitmo's

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not much a fan of history, eh?
    And this is evidence to your position?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Human psychology is human psychology - deterrence works in a rational framework.
    Deterring an individual and trying to deter a group is not the same. I'm sure you are familiar with herd or mob mentality?
    Last edited by csbrown28; 06-17-15 at 04:35 PM.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

  2. #102
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Specifically the 8th prohibits cruel and unusual punishment . . . I suppose you will now say that torture is neither cruel nor unusual
    The Eighth Amendment is part of the Constitution of the United States--not some imaginary constitution of the world. Neither that amendment nor or anything else in the Bill of Rights has ever protected enemy aliens detained abroad by U.S. military forces during time of war. It's revealing that you don't know something as basic as that. The only constitutional protection the Court has ever held the jihadists detained at Guantanamo were entitled to is habeas corpus. See Boumediene v. Bush, 553 U.S. 723 (2008). That right is satisfied by Combatant Status Review Tribunals, which are courtroom proceedings held at Guantanamo.

    Whether torture in general violated the Eighth Amendment's prohibition of cruel or unusual punishment would be irrelevant in any case, because none of the enhanced interrogation techniques authorized for use by U.S. officials constituted torture under applicable U.S. laws. Your personal definition of torture, uninformed by those laws, is not relevant to that question.

    I think that 18USC2441 is the encoded statute that criminalizes torture, our legislative response to CAT.
    As I said, the provisions of the 1994 Convention Against Torture U.S. negotiators agreed to were mainly codified in sections 2340, 2340A, and 2340B. Torture is also discussed in some other federal laws, e.g. the war crimes statute you mentioned.

    In a just world, many of the jihadist sons of bitches who were captured and detained at Guantanamo would long ago have been tried before military tribunals, convicted, and had their greasy necks stretched on a gallows, with the proceedings broadcast live so their pals overseas could watch, and learn. Being hooded and strung up like a piece of meat is not exactly going out in a blaze of glory. To hell with them, and soon, and may their helpmates join them there.

    Any America-hater who has the crying towel out for these war criminals might want to read about how quickly and decisively FDR dealt with a group of Nazi saboteurs captured here in the summer of 1942. A couple books have been written about it. The Supreme Court heard and denied their appeal in Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942). One fine day soon after that, only two months after they had landed here by U-boat, the six convicted war criminals--one of them a U.S. citizen--were taken to a building in New York, and one hour apart, electrocuted.

  3. #103
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    In a just world, many of the jihadist sons of bitches who were captured and detained at Guantanamo would long ago have been tried before military tribunals, convicted, and had their greasy necks stretched on a gallows, with the proceedings broadcast live so their pals overseas could watch, and learn. Being hooded and strung up like a piece of meat is not exactly going out in a blaze of glory. To hell with them, and soon, and may their helpmates join them there.
    Again another emotional outcry for blood. And again, I will ask you...What will it accomplish? Absolutely nothing. Your enemy isn't a political ideology like the Germans largely confined to a national border, it's a religio-political one and it exists in practically every country in the world. The harder to try to back it into a corner, the more desperate and unreasonable it will become. Every Time a neck is "stretched on the gallows" another terrorist is inspired, ISIL is evidence to that fact.

    I have no love for radical Islam (or any Islam or religion for that matter), but I know you can't defeat them with acts of violence as the core of your policy on how to deal with them. They have already proved they are willing to up their game to levels we won't (public burning anyone?) and they have proven that billions of bullets and millions of bombs will not stop them from running into crowded places and blowing up anything and everyone they can.+

    So please, park the machismo and blood lust and tell us all how you would solve the problem long term?
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    The Eighth Amendment is part of the Constitution of the United States--not some imaginary constitution of the world.
    As far as the Constitution, you are correct, but if we can't live the courage of our own convictions, why would anyone respect us?
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Quit crying.
    Its okay. Its okay. Maybe one day you'll have a leader who will try to justify torture with jingoistic nationalism and fear.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Again another emotional outcry for blood. And again, I will ask you...What will it accomplish? Absolutely nothing. Your enemy isn't a political ideology like the Germans largely confined to a national border, it's a religio-political one and it exists in practically every country in the world. The harder to try to back it into a corner, the more desperate and unreasonable it will become. Every Time a neck is "stretched on the gallows" another terrorist is inspired, ISIL is evidence to that fact.
    I don't buy any of that. But it makes a convenient excuse for doing nothing--"Don't make them mad! Just think what they might do!" What would you do, invite the bastards to counseling sessions and ask them what owie in their inner child makes them determined to kill us all?

    Your remark about executions is ridiculous, because we have not carried out even one. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the yellow son of a bitch who was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, in which almost 3,000 civilians were intentionally targeted and murdered, is still drawing breath. In fact he has never even been tried, more than thirteen years after the fact.

    I have no love for radical Islam (or any Islam or religion for that matter), but I know you can't defeat them with acts of violence as the core of your policy on how to deal with them.
    I ask you again--what would you do with people who believe it's their religious duty to kill or enslave unbelievers--which includes almost all Americans--except kill them first? There is no reasoning with them, and the notion that the U.S. has somehow created them by using force is nothing but anti-American propaganda whose purpose is to get us to stop using it. I'm sure the jihadists are grateful to the people who are spreading that propaganda.

    I know something about the historical roots of Islamic jihad, and they date from at least the early 1900's--long before the United States was involved in Muslim world in any way. Jihadism is rooted in the most orthodox documents in Islam. Jihadists are only following extreme, fundamentalist interpretations of the Koran, the hadith, and shari'ah. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that if the vast majority of the people in the world who identify themselves as Muslims are perfectly peaceful, it is only because they are not very observant believers.

    They have already proved they are willing to up their game to levels we won't (public burning anyone?) and they have proven that billions of bullets and millions of bombs will not stop them from running into crowded places and blowing up anything and everyone they can.
    That has not been proven at all. The U.S. has not attacked jihadists with either "billions of bullets" or "millions of bombs." In fact this country has yet to apply more than a very small fraction of its military power against them.

    So please, park the machismo and blood lust and tell us all how you would solve the problem long term?
    I have already said how I would solve the problem. Use whatever military force is needed to defeat jihadist movements anywhere they can be found, and make the whipping so severe that no Muslim on earth will ever again want anything to do with violence against the United States. Even the most fanatic people will not fight to the very end. No jihadist could be more fanatic than the Japanese troops defending Iwo Jima--and yet a few months later, many of them surrendered at Okinawa. And where at first people volunteered to be kamikaze pilots, as the beating got even heavier, they had to start dragooning people into doing it, getting them drunk, etc.

    Force does work, and always has, and sometimes there is just no alternative. If a large animal is coming at you and you have a gun that will kill it, you don't stand there and try to reason with it--you take aim and fire.

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    As far as the Constitution, you are correct, but if we can't live the courage of our own convictions, why would anyone respect us?
    I don't know what you mean. Enemy aliens detained abroad have never had any rights under our Constitution until a decade or so ago, when the Supreme Court held they have a right to habeas. If they are unlawful combatants--i.e. war criminals--they don't even have rights under the Geneva Conventions. I am not interested in whether war criminals respect this country. The jihadists detained at Guantanamo never had the least right to be treated as legitimate prisoners of war--the U.S. has given them that treatment anyway in an effort to be magnanimous, and it was a big mistake. Many of the men detained there could have been executed as war criminals right where they were captured, with only the briefest drumhead trial. If you are armed, within shooting distance of U.S. servicemen on a battlefield, and particularly if you are out of uniform, you have next to no rights. If you doubt that, read Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942). It is still good law.

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't buy any of that. But it makes a convenient excuse for doing nothing--"Don't make them mad! Just think what they might do!" What would you do, invite the bastards to counseling sessions and ask them what owie in their inner child makes them determined to kill us all?
    Excellent stawman....I never said do nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Your remark about executions is ridiculous, because we have not carried out even one. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the yellow son of a bitch who was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, in which almost 3,000 civilians were intentionally targeted and murdered, is still drawing breath. In fact he has never even been tried, more than thirteen years after the fact.
    I never meant to imply that we executed anyone, only that if we followed your advice and hung convicted terrorists on public TV you would inspire many more terrorists than you kill.


    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I ask you again--what would you do with people who believe it's their religious duty to kill or enslave unbelievers--which includes almost all Americans--except kill them first? There is no reasoning with them, and the notion that the U.S. has somehow created them by using force is nothing but anti-American propaganda whose purpose is to get us to stop using it. I'm sure the jihadists are grateful to the people who are spreading that propaganda.
    You will ask me again? You never asked me the first time, I did however ask you and you didn't answer.

    Now if you actually read the thread, you'd know what I propose. Go back a few posts and you will find your answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I know something about the historical roots of Islamic jihad, and they date from at least the early 1900's--long before the United States was involved in Muslim world in any way. Jihadism is rooted in the most orthodox documents in Islam. Jihadists are only following extreme, fundamentalist interpretations of the Koran, the hadith, and shari'ah. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that if the vast majority of the people in the world who identify themselves as Muslims are perfectly peaceful, it is only because they are not very observant believers.
    You claim to know, yet give your biased interpretation of what Jihad is it's obvious it means what you want it to mean. Not that it can't be what you say, but the majority of muslims don't interpret jihad simply as "holy war".


    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    That has not been proven at all. The U.S. has not attacked jihadists with either "billions of bullets" or "millions of bombs." In fact this country has yet to apply more than a very small fraction of its military power against them.
    A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.


    Far as bombs, you are correct, what I meant to say was millions of pounds of bombs. not bombs......


    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I have already said how I would solve the problem. Use whatever military force is needed to defeat jihadist movements anywhere they can be found, and make the whipping so severe that no Muslim on earth will ever again want anything to do with violence against the United States. Even the most fanatic people will not fight to the very end. No jihadist could be more fanatic than the Japanese troops defending Iwo Jima--and yet a few months later, many of them surrendered at Okinawa. And where at first people volunteered to be kamikaze pilots, as the beating got even heavier, they had to start dragooning people into doing it, getting them drunk, etc.

    Force does work, and always has, and sometimes there is just no alternative. If a large animal is coming at you and you have a gun that will kill it, you don't stand there and try to reason with it--you take aim and fire.
    Another one with the totally irrelevant analogies. Animals and nations and religious ideologies aren't even comparable.

    Having said that, you never answered my question...What is it you hope to accomplish with force, what would be your goal?
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Its okay. Its okay. Maybe one day you'll have a leader who will try to justify torture with jingoistic nationalism and fear.
    So thats the new internet put down if you want to win the war on terror? Fear?

  10. #110
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I can speak only for myself, but I'm here to tell you that I am an equal opportunity critic. I object just as strenuously to the legalization of torture as I object to the nullification of the Fourth Amendment and Habeas Corpus by the government.

    Is this a dream come true for you? Do you object equally to torture and illegitimate legislation? Or are you more selective?
    Actually I do, but the "torture" wasn't judged as torture at the time.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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