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Thread: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

  1. #91
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure, we interrogated Abu Zubaydah after he was brought in, despite the fact that he was wounded. We didn't have the luxury of the time necessary to wait for him to feel hunky dory.
    So.. What exactly is your point here? Somehow because he was injured that justifies torture? I mean he was treated, then transfered to black sites where he was tortured essentially non stop.

    Yup, a guy died (on accident) when his room got cold over night. Far from being an intended or acceptable result of an interrogation program that incident had strong repercussions inside the CIA, leading to a review that uncovered abuses in detention and interrogation procedures, and forcing the agency to change those procedures. Which is exactly what you would want to happen in that instance.
    1.)Since he died on "accident" this is what? Ok? Continue with the policies?
    2.)"It remains uncertain whether any intelligence officers have been punished as a result of the Afghan's death, raising questions about the CIA's accountability in the case. The CIA's then-station chief in Afghanistan was promoted after Rahman's death, and the officer who ran the prison went on to other assignments, including one overseas, several former intelligence officials said. The CIA declined to discuss the Salt Pit case and denied a Freedom of Information Act request submitted by the AP.... The CIA declined to discuss whether the two agency officers cited in the inspector general's report were punished... But when the case was put before Kyle D. Foggo, the CIA's third-ranking officer at the time, no formal administrative action was taken against the two men, said two former intelligence officials with knowledge of the case... "What you see across the board, there is no standard that is applied uniformly," said one former CIA officer, Charles Faddis, who recently published "Beyond Repair," a critical assessment of the agency." Salt Pit Death: Gul Rahman, CIA Prisoner, Died Of Hypothermia In Secret Afghanistan Prison


    Im sure the CIA did a lot of harsh punishments form the inside. I mean promoting the CIA stations chief. I mean afterall we should trust the CIA, its not like they didnt lie to congress, Justice Department, and broke their own rules and regulations constantly.. In other words, nothing happened no one was actually punished. A slap on the wrist (maybe), and we will give out a hard worded press statement, but in reality jack **** happened.

    Other than the media outlet, this, I think, fairly well captures the report:
    so, it doesn't count that the program actually helped stop attacks and save lives, because maybe they would have told us if we had first sent them on a 6 month all-expenses paid vacation to Tahiti. Oh, you don't think that would have worked? Well did you try it???.

    What you just quoted doesnt say what you think it says. Go over it one more time: "Rather, the committee rejects the CIA’s contention that information came from the program that couldn’t have been obtained through other means... The Senate Intelligence Committee reviewed 20 cited examples of intelligence “successes” that the CIA identified from the interrogation program and found that there was no relationship between a cited counterterrorism success and the techniques used... The CIA acknowledged that it never properly reviewed the effectiveness of these techniques"
    --For gods sake the CIA claims that its an effective use to gather intelligence but they even acknowledge they dont even know the effectiveness!
    But then again we can through study after study to also back up the conclusion that torture doesnt work. Maybe thats why the CIA didnt wanna study the effectiveness...
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  2. #92
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I have literally watched actual torture (much less ETOs) save lives, likely including my own. The idea that there is no trade-off between tough interrogation techniques and intelligence gathered may comfort those who don't want to recognize trade-offs for their policy proposals, but it does not match actual reality. The worst thing about torture is that it actually does work.
    1.)Its not "tough interrogation", its not "enhanced interrogation", its torture.
    2.) "The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information. In essence, there seems to be an unsubstantiated assumption that “compliance” carries the same connotation as “meaningful cooperation” (i.e., a source induced to provide accurate, relevant information of potential intelligence value)." http://fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf - In other words torture just gets people to say what you want to hear
    3.)"Throughout that period, Soufan says he never felt the need for harsh interrogation methods. He argues that techniques like waterboarding don't work. "When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them," he says. "That means the information you're getting is useless." But his main objection to the techniques, Soufan says, is moral. To use violence against detainees, he says, "is [al-Qaeda's] way, not the American way." A Top Interrogator Who's Against Torture - TIME
    4.)" Solid scientific evidence on how repeated and extreme stress and pain affect memory and executive functions (such as planning or forming intentions) suggests these techniques are unlikely to do anything other than the opposite of that intended by coercive or ‘enhanced’ interrogation." Torture Doesn’t Work, Neurobiologist Says | Harper's Magazine
    5.)"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear." FM 34-52 Chapter 1
    6.)"Because a person being tortured loses the ability to distinguish between true and false memories, as a 2008 study showed, further pain and stress does not cause him to tell the truth, but to retreat further into a fog where he cannot tell true from false." Torture Doesn’t Work, Neurobiologist Says | Harper's Magazine
    7.)"Yet the CIA had concluded before Sept. 11 that torture does not work. Richard Stolz, chief of the CIA’s clandestine service under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, testified to Congress: “Physical abuse or other degrading treatment was rejected not only because it is wrong, but because it has historically proven to be ineffective.” To quote from the agency’s own manuals, reproduced in the Senate report: “Inhumane physical or psychological techniques are counterproductive because they do not produce intelligence and will probably result in false answers.” The CIA Is Still Running Amok - Tim Weiner - POLITICO Magazine
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

  3. #93
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Not really a war junkie like those others. Which I guess is your que to call me a coward or sissy.
    Nope, I'll take the high road, thx.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Was Vietnam worth it? Hmmm, his death was tragic and no. My cousin was worth more than all the hundreds of thousands of NVC killed. Damage to our family was immense.
    First sorry to hear about your cousin. Honestly when I think of the stories I was told about what my father endured it literally brings tears to my eyes. Though I doubt this will bring you any comfort, my father deployed to Vietnam and while he survived the man that returned from Vietnam was not my father. So says his mother and his wife (I was to young to remember). Vietnam didn't take his body, but it did take his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Don't like national revenge? Well what did you call it on the day after when everyone was screaming for someones head.
    I didn't mean to imply that it didn't exist literally, but that it's purely an irrational and emotional response, i.e. unproductive to achieve any meaningful goals.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've deployed multiple times, and buried more than a few friends. I don't recall us ever mass-murdering civilians for the delight of doing so, a'la the accusation that we are becoming what we oppose.
    While your anecdotal experience is fascinating, do you think it represents the depth and breadth of American policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    [snip]...I would say that Bosnia, Somalia, Desert Storm, Korea, and a few others are "worth it".
    Korea and DS are what I was talking about. We can agree to disagree on their worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    And it's a good one. We are.

    Well that's an interesting claim - can you demonstrate it?
    Now you're just distracting with minutia. Whether we are or aren't we are still by far the world's largest user of oil and none of your replies invalidate, though they do attempt to distract from my original, claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually the revenge instinct evolved as a rational cost-benefit equation with prohibitive/warning functions. If you are perceived as potentially likely to respond to someone stealing from you by murdering them, then you will reduce the benefit to others of attempting to steal from you. Result: you don't get robbed.

    It's interesting stuff
    Yes because robbery is an excellent analogy to war. What works on the personal level often fails at the group and national level.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

  5. #95
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    While your anecdotal experience is fascinating, do you think it represents the depth and breadth of American policy?
    You were the one who tried to make having a legitimate opinion on this one hinged in part on connection to the military.

    I have a crap ton of buddies who are Marines, like me, and like your nephew. They want to go, and are, in fact, pissed off at the ones who get to go. The Peacetime Marine Corps sucks. MEU's suck.

    This is the most common share recently among my Marine friends on Facebook:


    Korea and DS are what I was talking about. We can agree to disagree on their worth.
    okay.

    Now you're just distracting with minutia.
    YOU are the one who made the claim. Can you back it up?

    Whether we are or aren't we are still by far the world's largest user of oil and none of your replies invalidate, though they do attempt to distract from my original, claim.
    Your claim was that we needed to achieve oil independence and that we were sending more money than ever to the Middle East. The fact that we are importing less energy than before due to domestic production is relevant to the first claim, and your inability to demonstrate it's accuracy is relevant to the second.

    Yes because robbery is an excellent analogy to war.
    Not much a fan of history, eh?

    What works on the personal level often fails at the group and national level.
    Human psychology is human psychology - deterrence works in a rational framework.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

  6. #96
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Pro tip, deal with fact. 9/11 did change everything.
    Quite desecrating those who died that day by using their memory as your emotional political tool to try get what your way.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    While your anecdotal experience is fascinating, do you think it represents the depth and breadth of American policy?



    Korea and DS are what I was talking about. We can agree to disagree on their worth.



    Now you're just distracting with minutia. Whether we are or aren't we are still by far the world's largest user of oil and none of your replies invalidate, though they do attempt to distract from my original, claim.



    Yes because robbery is an excellent analogy to war. What works on the personal level often fails at the group and national level.
    Yes, indeedy Mr. Brown. Now that you are fully aware that there are some very sick puppies feeding at the forum you must make them see the light, but not so bluntly that they suffer a catharctic psychological trauma by the possibility that all their fundamental ideals are mythical. Good luck with that and I am sincere.

  8. #98
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Quite desecrating those who died that day by using their memory as your emotional political tool to try get what your way.
    Quit crying.

  9. #99
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    You've shown you know just enough about this subject to tick off a few words you think will sound meaningful--Constitution, Eighth Amendment, U.S. Code, CAT, Nurmberg (Shrub and Darth C. were just like the Nazis, dude!), the news--and nothing more. I am sure you have never so much as glanced at a single page of the legal memos you pretend to know are sophistry, and by calling them that you only expose your own. Realizing that you don't know enough about the subject to make even one specific objection to the findings of the Office of Legal Counsel (or those of the lawyers in other federal offices that agreed with them), you try to hide the fact you have no arguments by making a lame crack about my supposed gullibility. You'd do better to consider your own.

    I challenge you, again, to make specific objections to the legal findings of the OLC regarding applicable U.S. laws against torture, as they concern the enhanced interrogation techniques U.S. officials used in 2002 and 2003 to make several jihadist war criminals reveal information about Al Qaeda and its plans to murder still more Americans. Show us how much more you know more about this subject than, say, the supremely naive John Yoo, who teaches at U.C. Berkeley Law School. Use reasoned legal arguments supported by facts, instead of just regurgitating cliche anti-American propaganda against this country. We've been hearing that from the Daily Kos, Media Matters, Mother Jones, and similar sources of leftist slop for the past dozen years.
    Some folks need to be led by the hand, kicking and screaming all the way.

    Specifically the 8th prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. I suppose you will now say that torture is neither cruel nor unusual, Mr. Yoo.

    I think that 18USC2441 is the encoded statute that criminalizes torture, our legislative response to CAT.

  10. #100
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    Re: CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Wouldn't it be nice if those so enamored with the illegality of torture also paid the same dedication when the govt go outside the lines of the Constitution?
    I can speak only for myself, but I'm here to tell you that I am an equal opportunity critic. I object just as strenuously to the legalization of torture as I object to the nullification of the Fourth Amendment and Habeas Corpus by the government.

    Is this a dream come true for you? Do you object equally to torture and illegitimate legislation? Or are you more selective?

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