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Thread: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, NIMBY.

    In studying what is known about this proposed TPP Agreement, I have more questions, so here they are.

    1. If it's so great, why is it a secret?

    2. We already have trade agreements with many of these countries. This will probably not open new opportunities for American exports, since most of the countries involved won't allow it, except for food. Perhaps that has been dealt with in this TPP, but I don't know. If enacted, however, it will encompass 40% of all global economic activity.

    3. Many of the details will not be known until five years after BHO leaves office. Why is this?

    4. The Democrats that voted against this feel that NAFTA hurt workers by causing job losses in the millions, and they feel that TPP will be NAFTA on a global scale - which is why they insist that TAA be included in the deal.

    You may not know the answers to my questions, but you keep up on things, so I bugged you! Apologies in advance.
    On principle I will not support any bill that Congress keeps secret. Paul Ryan supports it and Nancy Pilosi opposes it. I feel like this is an alternate universe. Something is wrong.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I find it interesting how this trade bill requires a component in it to deal with all the people who will lose jobs should it pass. That little trip wire sure causes me to step back a few paces from understanding what is being attempted here.
    Exactly so.
    And it's not only that.
    I frankly don't trust some of the people on either side of this.
    Another big factor is that on the one hand we're told that the deal has restrictions on Presidential power, yet Barack Obama is a proponent.
    We know that the language in Laws that seem clear to most means very little to Obama.

    Bottom line, like many things it seems we're not getting honest analysis on this deal ... partly because very few people are allowed access to it.
    Never a good sign.
    IF SOMETHING EXPLAINS EVERYTHING, IT EXPLAINS NOTHING.

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Democrats Desert Their President - Peter Baker & Jennifer Steinhauer, NYT
    Trade Defeat is Huge Win for Organized Labor - Brian Mahoney, Politico
    Democratic Party Is Officially Leaderless - Noah Rothman, Commentary
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    On principle I will not support any bill that Congress keeps secret. Paul Ryan supports it and Nancy Pilosi opposes it. I feel like this is an alternate universe. Something is wrong.
    Greetings, sawdust.

    I believe that the Congress-people who have looked at this document are adhering to some rule that BHO has put in place that it remains "secret." That in itself almost shouts that odds are great that the average person isn't going to like it! I just wonder why not, although Senator Warren did give people a small clue! :

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    On principle I will not support any bill that Congress keeps secret. Paul Ryan supports it and Nancy Pilosi opposes it. I feel like this is an alternate universe. Something is wrong.
    All trade agreements are confidential until presented for ratification. This is not new.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    All trade agreements are confidential until presented for ratification. This is not new.
    Trade, because it affects so many industries and people should be transparent. The last time we got this, Obamacare was the result. Fool me once.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Trade, because it affects so many industries and people should be transparent. The last time we got this, Obamacare was the result. Fool me once.
    As I said, every international trade agreement is confidential until presented for ratification.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, NIMBY.

    In studying what is known about this proposed TPP Agreement, I have more questions, so here they are.

    1. If it's so great, why is it a secret?

    2. We already have trade agreements with many of these countries. This will probably not open new opportunities for American exports, since most of the countries involved won't allow it, except for food. Perhaps that has been dealt with in this TPP, but I don't know. If enacted, however, it will encompass 40% of all global economic activity.

    3. Many of the details will not be known until five years after BHO leaves office. Why is this?

    4. The Democrats that voted against this feel that NAFTA hurt workers by causing job losses in the millions, and they feel that TPP will be NAFTA on a global scale - which is why they insist that TAA be included in the deal.

    You may not know the answers to my questions, but you keep up on things, so I bugged you! Apologies in advance.
    20+ years later, NAFTA receives mixed reviews, pro and con, but it is reasonable to ask whether benefits are outweighing the costs. Mexico's economy is so great that an estimated 1/3 of their population has mostly illegally moved to the USA or is trying to. We have lost an enormous percentage of our manufacturing base and our trade deficits have swelled. But certainly some jobs were created to replace those that were lost.

    NAFTA at 20: One Million U.S. Jobs Lost, Higher Income Inequality*|*Lori Wallach

    NAFTA, 20 Years Later: Do the Benefits Outweigh the Costs? - Knowledge@Wharton

    But NAFTA was made fully public and we knew what our elected representatives were voting on and the public commentary, pro and con was easily understood and evaluated.

    Can anybody here tell us what is written into the TPP? If it is so great, why all the shroud of secrecy? We know how a bill called Obamacare has turned out when they 'had to pass the bill in order for us for find out what is in it." By early 2014, at least 35 changes had been made to the bill, most illegally, just to keep it afloat. And that just put us at the mercy of Americans who may or may not have our best interests at heart.

    What risks are there for us to hand over sovereignty to foreign nations, many of which have already demonstrated that they do not have our best interests at heart? I am all for free trade, but I do not want us to legally obligate us to requirements that will handicap our negotiating ability and/or give other nations unfair advantage. I hope there are responsible legislators in Washington who will make sure this is not a huge boondoggle and another USA giveaway before they say yes.

    And yes, Hillary and everybody else who aspires to be President should have a public opinion about that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Hillary isn't taking a stand on much of anything that matters right now. She is pushing some 'feel good' non consequential ideas publicly but otherwise isn't granting any access to the media who might ask questions like that.
    Right, but what a politicians says or doesn't say during a campaign is nebulous, at best. Presuming they've been around enough we should be able to guess pretty accurately where they'd stand based on their track record.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #130
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    Re: Obama quest for fast-track trade bill defeated for now in House

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    20+ years later, NAFTA receives mixed reviews, pro and con, but it is reasonable to ask whether benefits are outweighing the costs. Mexico's economy is so great that an estimated 1/3 of their population has mostly illegally moved to the USA or is trying to. We have lost an enormous percentage of our manufacturing base and our trade deficits have swelled. But certainly some jobs were created to replace those that were lost.

    NAFTA at 20: One Million U.S. Jobs Lost, Higher Income Inequality*|*Lori Wallach

    NAFTA, 20 Years Later: Do the Benefits Outweigh the Costs? - Knowledge@Wharton

    But NAFTA was made fully public and we knew what our elected representatives were voting on and the public commentary, pro and con was easily understood and evaluated.

    Can anybody here tell us what is written into the TPP? If it is so great, why all the shroud of secrecy? We know how a bill called Obamacare has turned out when they 'had to pass the bill in order for us for find out what is in it." By early 2014, at least 35 changes had been made to the bill, most illegally, just to keep it afloat. And that just put us at the mercy of Americans who may or may not have our best interests at heart.

    What risks are there for us to hand over sovereignty to foreign nations, many of which have already demonstrated that they do not have our best interests at heart? I am all for free trade, but I do not want us to legally obligate us to requirements that will handicap our negotiating ability and/or give other nations unfair advantage. I hope there are responsible legislators in Washington who will make sure this is not a huge boondoggle and another USA giveaway before they say yes.

    And yes, Hillary and everybody else who aspires to be President should have a public opinion about that.
    Greetings, AlbqOwl.

    I also wonder 1) who is going to decide if unfair currency manipulation might be taking place; 2) what the criteria might be for determining same; and 3) who's going to be responsible for handling the problem. Since countries have been known to manipulate their currency to avoid domestic problems like excess inflation and/or deflation - even we have done that - how could it be argued that it should or should not also apply to foreign trade?

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