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Thread: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursmate View Post
    I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL. This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem. We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals. In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat. Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well. All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys . Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.
    I don't think that insisting that cops that who have violated department ethics codes, abused their vested authority, violate civil liberties, wrongfully kill people are prosecuted and held accountable, is not at all promoting a "lawless society" or "cop which hunts". The parental failure and other aspects you point to are correct, and that too needs to be addressed societally.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I don't think that is the message at all. I think the message is "start learning about the job and what you ask of law enforcement." Understand that they deal with unpredictable circumstances. Not an office job. This incident was tragic. But calling it murder is stupid and wrong.

    I might support negligence given evidence. But murder? No.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder

    Background: Common Law Murder

    At common law, murder was defined as killing another human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is a legal term of art, that encompasses the following types of murder:

    "Intent-to-kill murder"
    "Grievous-bodily-harm murder" - Killing someone in an attack intended to cause them grievous bodily harm. For example, if a person fatally stabbed someone, even if she only intended to wound her victim, she could still be executed.
    "Felony-murder" - Killing someone while in the process of committing a felony. Note that at common law, there were few felonies, and all carried the death penalty. For example, at common law, robbery was a felony. So if a robber accidentally killed someone during a robbery, the robber could be executed.
    "Depraved heart murder" - Killing someone in a way that demonstrates a callous disregard for the value of human life. For example, if a person intentionally fires a gun into a crowded room, and someone dies, the person could be convicted of depraved heart murder.
    These definitions are valuable because they inform subsequent reforms of American murder law.
    Manslaughter
    Manslaughter is the act of killing another human being in a way that is less culpable than murder. See Homicide.

    Under both the common law and the Pennsylvania Method of differentiating degrees of murder, manslaughter was divided into voluntary and involuntary manslaughter:

    Voluntary manslaughter is intentionally killing another person in the heat of passion and in response to adequate provocation.
    Involuntary manslaughter is negligently causing the death of another person.
    Under the Model Penal Code, manslaughter includes:

    Reckless homicide
    Homicide that would be murder, but "is committed under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance for which there is reasonable explanation or excuse."
    Murder, absolutely.

    Did the officer, or did the officer not ride up to Rice with his weapon already draw? Doesn't that give his clear intent despite him not being threaten by Rice prior to him drawing the weapon?

    Was Rice threatening or attempting to cause bodily harm to the officer, to which he was forced to defend himself? Remember, the toy was never drawn or brought to bare against the officers.
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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursmate View Post
    I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL.
    Pointless hyperbole. I'll take it as it is.
    This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem.
    You provided no solutions. You clearly laid the blame at the foot of Rice's mother and society in general. But neither Rice's mother or society pulled the trigger that day. If a person does something wrong, that person should pay for their misdeed, be it an officer or a civilian.

    They should not be above the law.
    We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals.
    In this incident, it's the police who are the criminals. Thus, the should pay the price as any common criminal would.
    In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat.
    He was waving around a toy. So no, your claim is completely invalid.
    Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well.
    Tamir's mom didn't shoot anyone. What she did was allow her child to play in a dangerous park. That's it. Otherwise, Tamir was a good kid.
    All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys .
    Don't cloud the issue. None of those other incidence had anything to do with Tamir Rice. Tamir himself was not a bad kid. So again, you're attempting to blame Tamir for getting shot. Now we're back to victim blaming.
    Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.
    Sigh... TAMIR NEVER DREW HIS TOY ON THE POLICE!

    What you're promoting is a police state. I'm for equal justice under the law.
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
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    Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    No, it doesn't.

    But, the police never saw the pistol in its entirety. At best, they saw the handle. In fact, Rice was not doing anything aggressive or threatening at the time the police arrived.

    So I ask, when did the police have a chance to see the tip of the toy and thus, assume it was a real weapon?
    So you at least admit that they saw the handle then? That handle looks very real. Are you suggesting officers WAIT to see the tip before reacting? Not exactly smart.

    Now. I think my position has been made ABUNDANTLY clear that I don't believe this was murder. I don't think the video is strong evidence for either side. It represents the constant gray that we see with these incidents. Sides taking political stances rather than factual ones. And that bothers me. These cops reacted poorly getting that close. The officer who pulled the trigger should not have been hired. There are plenty of hindsight answers.

    But should police have been called? YES! I'm pro gun too. But this is a kid we are talking about. And the adult who called? They had plenty of reason to call. The kid was pointing the weapon as we saw in the video. So when police arrived...they knew a gun was on scene. There was no "looking for an orange tip." Controlling the situation is what needed to happen. And they failed at that.

    This is a question of negligence or criminal action. And no way can you draw criminal action from what we know. They didn't murder this kid for being black. A rookie cop panicked and now has to have the death of this kid on his conscious for the rest of his life.

    I can see the department having to shell out money. And this was a tragedy. But it is a clear case of just how important it is for departments to get the proper resources to weed out these kinds of officers. How important it is for people to know how to respond to police. There are a hundred lessons here. The only one some people seem to care about is "down with the police."
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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Pointless hyperbole. I'll take it as it is.

    You provided no solutions. You clearly laid the blame at the foot of Rice's mother and society in general. But neither Rice's mother or society pulled the trigger that day. If a person does something wrong, that person should pay for their misdeed, be it an officer or a civilian.

    They should not be above the law.

    In this incident, it's the police who are the criminals. Thus, the should pay the price as any common criminal would.

    He was waving around a toy. So no, your claim is completely invalid.

    Tamir's mom didn't shoot anyone. What she did was allow her child to play in a dangerous park. That's it. Otherwise, Tamir was a good kid.

    Don't cloud the issue. None of those other incidence had anything to do with Tamir Rice. Tamir himself was not a bad kid. So again, you're attempting to blame Tamir for getting shot. Now we're back to victim blaming.

    Sigh... TAMIR NEVER DREW HIS TOY ON THE POLICE!

    What you're promoting is a police state. I'm for equal justice under the law.


    Please just watch 6:30

    And then extrapolate how officers should treat visible firearms. This is part of the reason I NEVER would open carry unless hunting.
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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So you at least admit that they saw the handle then? That handle looks very real. Are you suggesting officers WAIT to see the tip before reacting? Not exactly smart.
    I never denied they could have saw the handle.

    I'm not the one bringing up the meme about the kid removing the orange tip, now am I? And on that note, how else are they going to determine if the weapon is real or not? Are officers suppose to just open fire as soon as someone moves? Your entire belief system regarding law enforcement is flawed in that case, and law enforcement becomes nothing more than fearful men and women who can't hold their **** together long enough to even assess a threat as such.

    Now. I think my position has been made ABUNDANTLY clear that I don't believe this was murder. I don't think the video is strong evidence for either side. It represents the constant gray that we see with these incidents. Sides taking political stances rather than factual ones. And that bothers me. These cops reacted poorly getting that close. The officer who pulled the trigger should not have been hired. There are plenty of hindsight answers.

    But should police have been called? YES! I'm pro gun too. But this is a kid we are talking about. And the adult who called? They had plenty of reason to call. The kid was pointing the weapon as we saw in the video. So when police arrived...they knew a gun was on scene. There was no "looking for an orange tip." Controlling the situation is what needed to happen. And they failed at that.

    This is a question of negligence or criminal action. And no way can you draw criminal action from what we know. They didn't murder this kid for being black. A rookie cop panicked and now has to have the death of this kid on his conscious for the rest of his life.

    I can see the department having to shell out money. And this was a tragedy. But it is a clear case of just how important it is for departments to get the proper resources to weed out these kinds of officers. How important it is for people to know how to respond to police. There are a hundred lessons here. The only one some people seem to care about is "down with the police."
    They murdered a kid because they were overly aggressive and rushed to violence. He posed no threat when they rolled up on him and didn't give him a chance to do anything else but die. How is that not murder? When did they give the boy an opportunity to surrender? Or it is simply that if the police think you're a threat, they can open fire as soon as they feel an inkling of danger?

    You're saying the officer panicked. Are you sure? I ask because there's no way you can pull the officer's emotional state from the video. Also, nothing in said video shows the boy doing anything aggressive. We saw him lift his shirt, that's it. During that time, that faction of time, we have the police immediately open fire on him.

    At best, that an example of reckless homocide.
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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    I never denied they could have saw the handle.

    I'm not the one bringing up the meme about the kid removing the orange tip, now am I? And on that note, how else are they going to determine if the weapon is real or not? Are officers suppose to just open fire as soon as someone moves? Your entire belief system regarding law enforcement is flawed in that case, and law enforcement becomes nothing more than fearful men and women who can't hold their **** together long enough to even assess a threat as such.



    They murdered a kid because they were overly aggressive and rushed to violence. He posed no threat when they rolled up on him and didn't give him a chance to do anything else but die. How is that not murder? When did they give the boy an opportunity to surrender? Or it is simply that if the police think you're a threat, they can open fire as soon as they feel an inkling of danger?

    You're saying the officer panicked. Are you sure? I ask because there's no way you can pull the officer's emotional state from the video. Also, nothing in said video shows the boy doing anything aggressive. We saw him lift his shirt, that's it. During that time, that faction of time, we have the police immediately open fire on him.

    At best, that an example of reckless homocide.
    No. Specifically in Ohio it would be voluntary manslaughter. This guy wasnt rolling up to kill someone. It wasn't him doing something in a fit of rage. It was too fast. And given his history on the firing line? Are you suggesting he DIDNT panic? Occam's razor. He had a history. And the boy? He had something that looked like a real firearm.

    And lifting the shirt?



    It is the first step to drawing a concealed firearm in the waistband. Are you suggesting it would be unreasonable to believe that an officer prone to emotional breakdowns wouldn't panic seeing a kid pulling his shirt up making a REALISTIC gun handle visible?

    That is why the case for murder is stupid. The above paragraph is all the defense needs to prove and the case is sunk. All you have to do to prove negligence is that the officers acted poorly in performance of their duties. That is an easy case.

    Please don't make anymore strawmen of my argument. I'm not saying officers should roll up and shoot anyone who moves. You said that. Not me. But I'm also not focusing on the fact that this was a BB gun and that he was 12. This is the real world and it isn't impossible for a 12 year old to get a real gun.

    What I want to know is what came over the dispatch to the officers. What got them to drive that close to an allegedly armed person in a vehicle they should know is as bulletproof as butter. And since I just looked:

    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...o_handl_1.html

    "Man threatening with gun." And at no point does it seem it was mentioned "probably fake."

    That means a very REAL looking gun was seen and an officer prone to crying while handling firearms...responded to a call with someone threatening with a gun. You can pose all the what ifs you want, but the above makes a slam dunk defense against murder. These are facts. You have an officer prone to emotional problems, a real looking gun, poor information, a motion that could absolutely be construed as "hostile" ESPECIALLY if a person is already emotional distraught, and the icing on the cake was as you stated "overly aggressive."

    I agree with bad tactics. Poor communication. But you can't ask officers to "check for the orange tip." That is insane. And this incident was mishandled top to bottom. And it was a friggin tragedy. Don't assume my position is to defend the department or the officer. But I'm not going to call it murder. That is wrong.
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    Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder





    Murder, absolutely.

    Did the officer, or did the officer not ride up to Rice with his weapon already draw? Doesn't that give his clear intent despite him not being threaten by Rice prior to him drawing the weapon?

    Was Rice threatening or attempting to cause bodily harm to the officer, to which he was forced to defend himself? Remember, the toy was never drawn or brought to bare against the officers.
    Homicide =/= murder.

    I will admit I didn't realize reckless homicide was a charge. It doesn't exist in my state. It is manslaughter here. And it does seem to fit that category, but it is NOT murder. Murder is a specific charge.

    The office rode up with his gun drawn? Would that be a reasonable response to a "man with gun threatening" call?

    Did the office respond to a "man with gun call?" Should he have been on guard already?

    Remember that the kid DID pull his shirt up and expose the toy.

    Again my argument isn't that they didn't screw up. It was that this is NOT murder.
    Last edited by blackjack50; 06-15-15 at 06:39 PM.
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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Do you really think that someone who cries at the firing line...is going to have the best judgement during a force encounter in the real world?

    Or do you think they might be prone to making panicked decisions? As you said: this isn't in a vacuum.
    Again. Irrelevant to the response that we can see was made to the gun Tamir was reaching for.


    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    And witness testimony DID contradict what he said.
    No. Unable to confirm does not mean contradiction.
    A witness hearing more shots than fired is not a contradiction but an impossibility and speaks to their mishearing what happened.



    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    But it does look like the rookie was very much a Barney and not someone who could be trusted with a firearm.
    That is your own bias speaking.
    What happened in the past is irrelevant to his response to the threat that Tamir presented.

    That said.

    I would be willing to bet that most folks who break down over relationship problems get over it and do not let is effect their duties years later.


    So suggesting that such an event that happened years in the past somehow had an affected his response to the threat that Tamir presented, is absurd.
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    Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursmate View Post
    I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL. This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem. We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals. In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat. Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well. All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys . Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.
    I've seen several references to Tamir's mom on this thread. I guess I'm unclear what the problem is with her. According to the investigation, he spent most days at the community rec center, and he was right by there when shot. What's a better option for him during the day than the community center? When I was his age, I never spent any time at home when not in school. Either riding my bike, shooting BB guns in the nearby woods, fishing, or just wandering around with friends. I had safer options outside, but that's because I grew up in a wealthier and more rural area. But given his neighborhood, where should he go, or does he have to spend all day in his room reading literature for you to approve of her parenting.

    You're blaming her for him waving around what was actually a toy given to him THAT DAY. Should Bad Mom have somehow divined from her Tarot cards that he got that gun? If not how does she find out that he has the gun and warn him not to play with it? What opportunity did Bad Mom have to intervene?

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