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Thread: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I'm sure by the end of this, we'll find out that Tamir Rice was really a front for a 42 year old Colombian drug lord with ties to the Triads and actually kept voodoo dolls in his room.
    I do not share that cynical view of our legal system. I am confident that a grand jury can act impartially and reach the right result IF the process is not abused. That is at least open to question in the Ferguson case, because Wilson, the officer who killed Brown, was allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury. Traditionally, the person who was the target of the inquiry was not allowed to do that.

    It is true that the Fifth Amendment right not to be "held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a[n] . . . indictment of a grand jury" is one of several parts of the Bill of Rights the Supreme Court has never held to be incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment, and apply through it to the states. So I suppose Missouri law might have allowed, or even required, the D.A. to let Wilson testify in his defense to the grand jury. But if that was not the case, by allowing that testimony the D.A. opened to question the grand jury's finding that there was no probable cause to indict Wilson.

    The same applies here. Unless Ohio law requires the officer who killed this boy to be allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury, the D.A. should not allow it. That is the traditional rule, and the one that applies in federal cases, as Justice Scalia once explained:


    [R]equiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory to an adjudicatory body.

    It is axiomatic that the grand jury sits not to determine guilt or innocence, but to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge. That has always been so; and to make the assessment it has always been thought sufficient to hear only the prosecutor's side . . . According to the description of an early American court, three years before the Fifth Amendment was ratified, it is the grand jury's function not "to enquire ... upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied," or otherwise to try the suspect's defenses, but only to examine "upon what foundation [the charge] is made" by the prosecutor. As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented. (emphasis added; internal citations omitted) U.S. v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36, 51-52 (1992)
    Last edited by matchlight; 06-12-15 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #242
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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

    The cops ****ed up.
    it does when they have a gun in their wasteband.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

    The cops ****ed up.
    There is no part of the video in which a person can tell whether he's reaching for anything. If there is, I'd like to see the specific frame/segment of the video.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

    The cops ****ed up.
    It is dishonest to say "reaching in one's waistband". He reached for his gun which is a lethal threat.

    How the driver approached him is irrelevant to that lethal threat and the response to it.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I do not share that cynical view of our legal system. I am confident that a grand jury can act impartially and reach the right result IF the process is not abused. That is at least open to question in the Ferguson case, because Wilson, the officer who killed Brown, was allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury. Traditionally, the person who was the target of the inquiry was not allowed to do that.

    It is true that the Fifth Amendment right not to be "held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a[n] . . . indictment of a grand jury" is one of several parts of the Bill of Rights the Supreme Court has never held to be incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment, and apply through it to the states. I have no idea if Missouri law required the D.A. to present the grand jury with Wilson's testimony in his defense. But if it did not, by allowing that testimony the D.A. opened to question the grand jury's finding that there was no probable cause to indict Wilson.

    Unless Ohio law requires the officer who killed this boy to be allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury, the D.A. should not allow it. That is the traditional rule, and the one that applies in federal cases, as Justice Scalia once explained:


    [R]equiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory to an adjudicatory body.
    It is axiomatic that the grand jury sits not to determine guilt or innocence, but to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge. That has always been so; and to make the assessment it has always been thought sufficient to hear only the prosecutor's side . . . According to the description of an early American court, three years before the Fifth Amendment was ratified, it is the grand jury's function not "to enquire ... upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied," or otherwise to try the suspect's defenses, but only to examine "upon what foundation [the charge] is made" by the prosecutor. As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented. (emphasis added; internal citations omitted) U.S. v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36, 51-52 (1992)
    While I commend your faith in the legal system, I don't share your sunny view of the world because of how many people have been released after spending 20+ years in prisons thanks to grand juries, corrupt police departments and biased judges.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 ye...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I am going to go for the one with the hammer down. Just a guess lol

    But then again...
    The top is the pellet gun. Who would put Hogue grips on a pellet gun even if it were possible? The hammer is back on the bottom one because it is my home defence weapon and is loaded (I'm single and live alone, no kids, so it is safe for me), the Desert Eagle is single action with no Berretta type safety for lowering the hammer.
    Be sure to work hard and get lots of overtime. People on welfare want more steaks and free upgrades to smart phones with unlimited data packages.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    it does when they have a gun in their wasteband.
    Not in an open carry state.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There is no part of the video in which a person can tell whether he's reaching for anything. If there is, I'd like to see the specific frame/segment of the video.
    The quality of the video isn't great but it appears that Rice notices the cop car, gets up and starts walking toward where he figures the cops are going to pull up and then gets wasted. I can't tell if he had anything in his hands when he started walking but his hands were in front of him at about waist level. He may have had his hands in his jacket pockets. At any rate, without audio I can't really tell whether he flinched before or after he got shot.

    Ultimately, he did a number of things that lead to his own demise but if the cops had approached in a normal (even for a felony stop) fashion this likely would not have ended with a dead kid.

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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There is no part of the video in which a person can tell whether he's reaching for anything. If there is, I'd like to see the specific frame/segment of the video.
    Then you may be blind.
    The black object shaped like a gun can really only be the gun he was in possession of and is pulling out.

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    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    For something, and IMO reaching for "something" under your shirt isn't a license for police to shoot and kill you.
    if it is a gun under that shirt and the police know it then yes it is.


    Yeah, there is no evidence anywhere that police treat blacks differently than whites....
    as i said the race card is a poor argument to make.


    He's a child and they do stupid things. It's part of the job description.
    not according to his grandma. he had the gun to intimidate people. not smart in my opinion.

    Tamir Rice shooting: What is an airsoft gun? | cleveland.com

    according to this article it was an airsoft tip with an orange tip that had been removed.
    it wasn't a bb gun

    Airsoft Guns - FindLaw

    However, federal importation laws in the United States simply require that all Airsoft guns transported within or imported into the country have barrels with a minimum 6mm wide blaze orange tip, so as to avoid confusion with real firearms. Most retailers of Airsoft guns have disclaimers stating that their Airsoft guns are sold with an orange tip, and that it is illegal to remove the orange tip. - See more at: Airsoft Guns - FindLaw

    there are a few exceptions.

    actual bb guns do not fall under this restriction.

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